Fonts project meeting and elections

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Fonts project meeting and elections

Ben de Groot-2
To anyone within Gentoo who is interested in fonts

I would like to announce a meeting to be held in #gentoo-meetings on
Freenode, on Friday February 27 at 06:00 UTC, unless another date
and/or time will be suggested by people who want to attend.

There hasn't been much activity in the fonts area of Gentoo, and our
lead seems to be MIA.

The main points on the agenda:

1. Who wants to be member of the Fonts project, and help out?
2. Members to elect a new lead. I'm nominating myself.
3. Make a plan for dealing with open bugs
4. Open floor

--
Cheers,

Ben | yngwin
Gentoo developer

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Re: Fonts project meeting and elections

Alexis Ballier-2
Hi Ben,

On Sun, 22 Feb 2015 03:43:33 +0800
Ben de Groot <[hidden email]> wrote:

> To anyone within Gentoo who is interested in fonts
>
> I would like to announce a meeting to be held in #gentoo-meetings on
> Freenode, on Friday February 27 at 06:00 UTC, unless another date
> and/or time will be suggested by people who want to attend.
[...]
> The main points on the agenda:
>
> 1. Who wants to be member of the Fonts project, and help out?
> 2. Members to elect a new lead. I'm nominating myself.


I've been on the alias and maintaining a few fonts (or rather,
fonts/tex) packages for a while now, whatever that means.

I won't be able to attend the meeting, but considering you've been the
(only?) one doing most of the work on fonts side recently, count my
vote & approval for you being the lead.


Alexis.

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Re: Fonts project meeting and elections

Guilherme Amadio-2
In reply to this post by Ben de Groot-2
Hello,

On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 03:43:33AM +0800, Ben de Groot wrote:

> To anyone within Gentoo who is interested in fonts
>
> I would like to announce a meeting to be held in #gentoo-meetings on
> Freenode, on Friday February 27 at 06:00 UTC, unless another date
> and/or time will be suggested by people who want to attend.
>
> There hasn't been much activity in the fonts area of Gentoo, and our
> lead seems to be MIA.
>
> The main points on the agenda:
>
> 1. Who wants to be member of the Fonts project, and help out?
> 2. Members to elect a new lead. I'm nominating myself.
> 3. Make a plan for dealing with open bugs
> 4. Open floor
>

 Yes, I would like to be part of the team. I was thinking about creating
 a Typography project, but if there is already a Fonts project, it will
 work just as well. I won't nominate myself as a lead, since I just
 became a Gentoo dev, but I do want to help. I will show up to the
 meeting.

 Best,
 —Guilherme


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Re: Fonts project meeting and elections

Ben de Groot-2
In reply to this post by Alexis Ballier-2
On 22 February 2015 at 17:52, Alexis Ballier <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Ben,
>
> On Sun, 22 Feb 2015 03:43:33 +0800
> Ben de Groot <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> To anyone within Gentoo who is interested in fonts
>>
>> I would like to announce a meeting to be held in #gentoo-meetings on
>> Freenode, on Friday February 27 at 06:00 UTC, unless another date
>> and/or time will be suggested by people who want to attend.
> [...]
>> The main points on the agenda:
>>
>> 1. Who wants to be member of the Fonts project, and help out?
>> 2. Members to elect a new lead. I'm nominating myself.
>
>
> I've been on the alias and maintaining a few fonts (or rather,
> fonts/tex) packages for a while now, whatever that means.
>
> I won't be able to attend the meeting, but considering you've been the
> (only?) one doing most of the work on fonts side recently, count my
> vote & approval for you being the lead.
>
>
> Alexis.

Thanks and welcome to the team!

--
Cheers,

Ben | yngwin
Gentoo developer

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Re: Fonts project meeting and elections

Ben de Groot-2
In reply to this post by Guilherme Amadio-2
On 22 February 2015 at 23:27, Guilherme Amadio <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 03:43:33AM +0800, Ben de Groot wrote:
>> To anyone within Gentoo who is interested in fonts
>>
>> I would like to announce a meeting to be held in #gentoo-meetings on
>> Freenode, on Friday February 27 at 06:00 UTC, unless another date
>> and/or time will be suggested by people who want to attend.
>>
>> There hasn't been much activity in the fonts area of Gentoo, and our
>> lead seems to be MIA.
>>
>> The main points on the agenda:
>>
>> 1. Who wants to be member of the Fonts project, and help out?
>> 2. Members to elect a new lead. I'm nominating myself.
>> 3. Make a plan for dealing with open bugs
>> 4. Open floor
>>
>
>  Yes, I would like to be part of the team. I was thinking about creating
>  a Typography project, but if there is already a Fonts project, it will
>  work just as well. I won't nominate myself as a lead, since I just
>  became a Gentoo dev, but I do want to help. I will show up to the
>  meeting.
>

Welcome to the team!

--
Cheers,

Ben | yngwin
Gentoo developer

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Re: Fonts project meeting and elections

Ben de Groot-2
In reply to this post by Ben de Groot-2
On 22 February 2015 at 03:43, Ben de Groot <[hidden email]> wrote:
> To anyone within Gentoo who is interested in fonts
>
> I would like to announce a meeting to be held in #gentoo-meetings on
> Freenode, on Friday February 27 at 06:00 UTC, unless another date
> and/or time will be suggested by people who want to attend.

Since nobody actually showed up, here is what I've decided and am proposing:

1. lu_zero, matsuu, pva: do you still want to be members of the Fonts
project? Then add yourselves to the new project page:
https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Fonts

2. Since aballier voted for me, and there were no other nominations,
we default to me becoming the lead.

3. Handling of fonts with both truetype and opentype variants, as
brought up in https://bugs.gentoo.org/406301#c8
Since OpenType is an extension of TrueType, and superior for desktop
and printing use, I propose that we prefer installing just OpenType.
But this should be user configurable, so in those cases I propose we
do:

IUSE="+opentype"
if use opentype; then
    FONT_SUFFIX="otf"
else
    FONT_SUFFIX="ttf"
fi

4. Project member should have a look at font bugs.
https://bugs.gentoo.org/buglist.cgi?quicksearch=media-fonts has a lot
of low hanging fruit: version bumps, dead homepages, etc. Also some
good new packages.

5. Some fonts have webfont variants (WOFF is the important one here).
This may be useful for users doing web development. What are your
thoughts on installing those (conditionally, toggled by useflag)?

Anything else you want to discuss?

--
Cheers,

Ben | yngwin
Gentoo developer

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Re: Fonts project meeting and elections

Peter Stuge-4
Ben de Groot wrote:
> I propose that we prefer installing just OpenType. But this should
> be user configurable, so in those cases I propose we do:
>
> IUSE="+opentype"
> if use opentype; then
>     FONT_SUFFIX="otf"
> else
>     FONT_SUFFIX="ttf"
> fi

So if I first USE=-opentype and later USE=opentype the filenames
would change even though the fonts are actually the same. Do you
know that no software packages will get horribly confused by that,
and end up doing silly things such as listing each font twice?


//Peter

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Re: Fonts project meeting and elections

Ben de Groot-2
On 27 February 2015 at 18:34, Peter Stuge <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Ben de Groot wrote:
>> I propose that we prefer installing just OpenType. But this should
>> be user configurable, so in those cases I propose we do:
>>
>> IUSE="+opentype"
>> if use opentype; then
>>     FONT_SUFFIX="otf"
>> else
>>     FONT_SUFFIX="ttf"
>> fi
>
> So if I first USE=-opentype and later USE=opentype the filenames
> would change even though the fonts are actually the same. Do you
> know that no software packages will get horribly confused by that,
> and end up doing silly things such as listing each font twice?

So what are you suggesting?

--
Cheers,

Ben | yngwin
Gentoo developer

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Re: Fonts project meeting and elections

Luca Barbato
In reply to this post by Ben de Groot-2
On 27/02/15 08:45, Ben de Groot wrote:

> On 22 February 2015 at 03:43, Ben de Groot <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> To anyone within Gentoo who is interested in fonts
>>
>> I would like to announce a meeting to be held in #gentoo-meetings on
>> Freenode, on Friday February 27 at 06:00 UTC, unless another date
>> and/or time will be suggested by people who want to attend.
>
> Since nobody actually showed up, here is what I've decided and am proposing:
>
> 1. lu_zero, matsuu, pva: do you still want to be members of the Fonts
> project? Then add yourselves to the new project page:
> https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Fonts

I do not have enough time for it right now.

> 2. Since aballier voted for me, and there were no other nominations,
> we default to me becoming the lead.

Fine for me.

> 3. Handling of fonts with both truetype and opentype variants, as
> brought up in https://bugs.gentoo.org/406301#c8
> Since OpenType is an extension of TrueType, and superior for desktop
> and printing use, I propose that we prefer installing just OpenType.
> But this should be user configurable, so in those cases I propose we
> do:
>
> IUSE="+opentype"
> if use opentype; then
>     FONT_SUFFIX="otf"
> else
>     FONT_SUFFIX="ttf"
> fi

If both are installed which is picked?

> 5. Some fonts have webfont variants (WOFF is the important one here).
> This may be useful for users doing web development. What are your
> thoughts on installing those (conditionally, toggled by useflag)?

I'd make it an use expand

FONTS="otf ttf woff"

If nothing is set install all, if some are set install those.

lu


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Re: Fonts project meeting and elections

Peter Stuge-4
In reply to this post by Ben de Groot-2
Ben de Groot wrote:

> >> I propose that we prefer installing just OpenType. But this should
> >> be user configurable, so in those cases I propose we do:
> >>
> >> IUSE="+opentype"
> >> if use opentype; then
> >>     FONT_SUFFIX="otf"
> >> else
> >>     FONT_SUFFIX="ttf"
> >> fi
> >
> > So if I first USE=-opentype and later USE=opentype the filenames
> > would change even though the fonts are actually the same. Do you
> > know that no software packages will get horribly confused by that,
> > and end up doing silly things such as listing each font twice?
>
> So what are you suggesting?

I'm not sure what the solution is - I just pointed out that there
might be a problem.


//Peter

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Re: Fonts project meeting and elections

Guilherme Amadio-2
In reply to this post by Ben de Groot-2
Hello!

On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 03:45:23PM +0800, Ben de Groot wrote:
> On 22 February 2015 at 03:43, Ben de Groot <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > To anyone within Gentoo who is interested in fonts
> >
> > I would like to announce a meeting to be held in #gentoo-meetings on
> > Freenode, on Friday February 27 at 06:00 UTC, unless another date
> > and/or time will be suggested by people who want to attend.
>
> Since nobody actually showed up, here is what I've decided and am proposing:

Oops, got caught up by the timezone difference... Sorry about that.
It was late at night here, but yesterday.

>
> 1. lu_zero, matsuu, pva: do you still want to be members of the Fonts
> project? Then add yourselves to the new project page:
> https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Fonts

I'm listed, but why can I not edit the page? I'd like to be able to.

>
> 2. Since aballier voted for me, and there were no other nominations,
> we default to me becoming the lead.
>
> 3. Handling of fonts with both truetype and opentype variants, as
> brought up in https://bugs.gentoo.org/406301#c8
> Since OpenType is an extension of TrueType, and superior for desktop
> and printing use, I propose that we prefer installing just OpenType.
> But this should be user configurable, so in those cases I propose we
> do:
>
> IUSE="+opentype"
> if use opentype; then
>     FONT_SUFFIX="otf"
> else
>     FONT_SUFFIX="ttf"
> fi

Both this and the use expand suggested by Luca seem good methods.
I also suggest we prefer OpenType over TrueType whenever possible.

>
> 4. Project member should have a look at font bugs.
> https://bugs.gentoo.org/buglist.cgi?quicksearch=media-fonts has a lot
> of low hanging fruit: version bumps, dead homepages, etc. Also some
> good new packages.

I've seen a few of those and suggested webpages for a couple of them.
I can go fix some of these if nobody else does.

> 5. Some fonts have webfont variants (WOFF is the important one here).
> This may be useful for users doing web development. What are your
> thoughts on installing those (conditionally, toggled by useflag)?

Since this is mostly used for web developers, I recommend to leave it
off for desktop users, but possibly on for servers, for example.

>
> Anything else you want to discuss?
>

I'd like to suggest that we do not name new font packages font-*, but
simply by the name of the typeface, such as open-sans, source-pro, etc.
There is Source Serif, Source Sans, and Source Han Sans that are not
packaged yet (see https://github.com/adobe-fonts for more info), as well
as many other nice and well-known typefaces and icon fonts such as
Aller, Amble, Casper, Clear Sans, Entypo, Font Awesome, Signika, Comic
Neue, Fira, Nexa, Exo, Nobile, Open Sans, etc.

There is also the really nice Input (http://input.fontbureau.com), but
its license is only free for personal use, so we may need to talk to its
designer to see if we can package it at all. I'm using it on my laptop,
and it's a pleasure to read and very customizable.

Well, maybe opening a #gentoo-fonts on IRC will be a nice way to
coordinate our efforts.

Also, this is definitely a minor thing, but all designers prefer the
term typeface to font when referring to typefaces, so they'd probably be
happy if media-fonts became media-type, or something similar. The
distinction is that the set of fonts (regular, light, bold, condensed,
etc) is what makes a typeface, which is the general style of all fonts
in the set. Anyway, just food for thought.

Best,
—Guilherme







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Re: Fonts project meeting and elections

Ben de Groot-2
On 28 February 2015 at 00:26, Guilherme Amadio <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 03:45:23PM +0800, Ben de Groot wrote:
>>
>> 1. lu_zero, matsuu, pva: do you still want to be members of the Fonts
>> project? Then add yourselves to the new project page:
>> https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Fonts
>
> I'm listed, but why can I not edit the page? I'd like to be able to.

You need to contact [hidden email] to give you developer status on the wiki.

>> 3. Handling of fonts with both truetype and opentype variants, as
>> brought up in https://bugs.gentoo.org/406301#c8
>> Since OpenType is an extension of TrueType, and superior for desktop
>> and printing use, I propose that we prefer installing just OpenType.
>> But this should be user configurable, so in those cases I propose we
>> do:
>>
>> IUSE="+opentype"
>> if use opentype; then
>>     FONT_SUFFIX="otf"
>> else
>>     FONT_SUFFIX="ttf"
>> fi
>
> Both this and the use expand suggested by Luca seem good methods.
> I also suggest we prefer OpenType over TrueType whenever possible.

We need to get an addition to the eclass whipped up then, for use
expand handling.

>> 4. Project member should have a look at font bugs.
>> https://bugs.gentoo.org/buglist.cgi?quicksearch=media-fonts has a lot
>> of low hanging fruit: version bumps, dead homepages, etc. Also some
>> good new packages.
>
> I've seen a few of those and suggested webpages for a couple of them.
> I can go fix some of these if nobody else does.

Please do.

>> 5. Some fonts have webfont variants (WOFF is the important one here).
>> This may be useful for users doing web development. What are your
>> thoughts on installing those (conditionally, toggled by useflag)?
>
> Since this is mostly used for web developers, I recommend to leave it
> off for desktop users, but possibly on for servers, for example.

If we do the use expand, we should leave it up for users to set. I
suggest we default to only otf, if there is a choice. Other formats
should not be installed by default, unless it's the only option for
that package.

>> Anything else you want to discuss?
>>
>
> I'd like to suggest that we do not name new font packages font-*, but
> simply by the name of the typeface, such as open-sans, source-pro, etc.

I totally agree. I would also like to prevent format suffixes, such as
in ttf-bitstream-vera. And I would also like just lowercase package
names.

I think all font-* packages we have in the tree are X.org shipped
bitmap fonts. It's a useful indication for most users to ignore these.

> There is Source Serif, Source Sans, and Source Han Sans that are not
> packaged yet (see https://github.com/adobe-fonts for more info),

We do have media-fonts/source-pro, and I am planning on bumping that
package, as per bug #429780. I am hesitant to include the Han font
tho, since it is a 700+ MB download that may catch users unawares.

> as well
> as many other nice and well-known typefaces and icon fonts such as
> Aller, Amble, Casper, Clear Sans, Entypo, Font Awesome, Signika, Comic
> Neue, Fira, Nexa, Exo, Nobile, Open Sans, etc.

Some of those are on my to-do list already, but feel free to add others.

> There is also the really nice Input (http://input.fontbureau.com), but
> its license is only free for personal use, so we may need to talk to its
> designer to see if we can package it at all. I'm using it on my laptop,
> and it's a pleasure to read and very customizable.

The non-redistributable license is a problem. That's why I have chosen
not to include Envy R (which is somewhat popular for coding too).
Adding fonts with fetch restrictions seem counter-productive to me.
Users can simply download them for themselves and drop them in
~/.fonts/.

> Well, maybe opening a #gentoo-fonts on IRC will be a nice way to
> coordinate our efforts.

I don't think there will be that much to discuss on an ongoing basis
wrt fonts that it warrants a new channel. Let's keep it in
#gentoo-desktop for now, and see if we actually need a dedicated
channel.

> Also, this is definitely a minor thing, but all designers prefer the
> term typeface to font when referring to typefaces, so they'd probably be
> happy if media-fonts became media-type, or something similar. The
> distinction is that the set of fonts (regular, light, bold, condensed,
> etc) is what makes a typeface, which is the general style of all fonts
> in the set. Anyway, just food for thought.

I am aware of this, but the usage of "fonts" is so ingrained in the
popular mind, and it's a minor mistake at worst. I don't think it is
worth going thru the trouble of renaming the category (and fixing all
revdeps) for. We could use "typeface" in descriptions tho.

Finally, I would like to bring up fontconfig-ultimate [1] with a user
provided ebuild [2]  and some discussion on the forums [3]. There are
also many "fixed" fonts available, packaged for Arch Linux [4]. There
is some user demand for this, so I think we should package it. I
haven't yet taken the time to do so (too much other stuff going on).
What are your thoughts?

1: https://github.com/bohoomil/fontconfig-ultimate
2: http://pastebin.com/iZ3LwbfH
3: http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-993030-highlight-.html
4: http://bohoomil.com/repo/fonts/

--
Cheers,

Ben | yngwin
Gentoo developer

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Re: Fonts project meeting and elections

Michael Orlitzky
On 02/28/2015 01:47 AM, Ben de Groot wrote:
>>
>> Since this is mostly used for web developers, I recommend to leave it
>> off for desktop users, but possibly on for servers, for example.
>
> If we do the use expand, we should leave it up for users to set. I
> suggest we default to only otf, if there is a choice. Other formats
> should not be installed by default, unless it's the only option for
> that package.
>

This is going to get confusing fast -- please consider just installing
everything by default. If you default to "only OTF," what happens when
you install a foo-ttf package? Is it a no-op? What if there's a package
that only ships WOFF files? A combination of TTF and WOFF?

Most of the fonts are tiny and it's not worth the hassle to avoid a few
kilobytes. It will also keep the eclass nice and clean. If you default
to installing everything, then when a user goes out of his way to remove
(say) WOFF, you can go ahead and just ignore WOFF files even if the
result is something stupid like an empty package.

(The webfonts might be useful for clients, by the way. If they're not
installed locally, your browser downloads them on-demand and caches them
for later use.)


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Re: Fonts project meeting and elections

Duncan-42
Michael Orlitzky posted on Sat, 28 Feb 2015 06:52:55 -0500 as excerpted:

> (The webfonts might be useful for clients, by the way. If they're not
> installed locally, your browser downloads them on-demand and caches them
> for later use.)

Well, unless the user tells it not to, of course. =:^)

(That's the TL;DR version, too.)

Firefox, RequestPolicy extension, set to disallow connection to domains  
(including fonts.google.com or whatever that common one is) other than
the one directly browsed to, unless they've been specifically allowed
from browsed domain to other-domain (or either one has been allowed
globally).

Rather effective anti-tracker, anti-malware and ad-blocker, altho it does
take some time to get all your normally needed alloweds set so normally
browsed-to sites "just work" for the most part.  With youtube now
switching to html5 video by default, for instance, with quite a few video-
feed domains and with many videos two-levels deep, it took a few hours of
youtubing to get nearly all the first-level-video-server domains allowed
from youtube, but I'm still hitting blocks on the first-level-to-second-
level permissions from time to time, and having to allow them as they
come up.

But all that facebook and twitter tracking due to those nearly ubiquitous
icons... just doesn't track... since I don't allow it globally and am
pretty strict about allowing it per-site as well.  (Actually, as I seldom
use those site and don't have accounts, and have actually followed links
to say twitter only a few times and facebook possibly never, I basically
don't allow it at all, but the general person who /does/ use them could
simply be very selective about permanent alloweds and use temporary
alloweds only when they actually want to use that functionality.)

Back on-topic, most web-fonts don't get downloaded either, since they're
from some third party site.  I normally get the broken-character square
instead, but most of the time functionality is obvious.

Basically like noscript, but for general third-party connections, not
just scripts, etc.  Tho with both on (plus others like disconnect), a
user often has to enable a site in multiple places to actually have it
allowed.  Which is good; defense in depth and all! =:^)  Tho doing
anything new on the web or browsing to a new site and getting it to work
does tend to take me a bit longer than most, since I have to figure out
what I have to turn on to get it to work, and what I can leave off as
it's just tracking/ads/otherwise-unnecessary, does take a bit longer than
it would if I were simply running around naked with everything hanging
out to the world, as so many apparently choose to be, online if not IRL.

--
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman


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Re: Fonts project meeting and elections

Ben de Groot-2
In reply to this post by Michael Orlitzky
On 28 February 2015 at 19:52, Michael Orlitzky <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 02/28/2015 01:47 AM, Ben de Groot wrote:
>>>
>>> Since this is mostly used for web developers, I recommend to leave it
>>> off for desktop users, but possibly on for servers, for example.
>>
>> If we do the use expand, we should leave it up for users to set. I
>> suggest we default to only otf, if there is a choice. Other formats
>> should not be installed by default, unless it's the only option for
>> that package.
>>
>
> This is going to get confusing fast -- please consider just installing
> everything by default. If you default to "only OTF," what happens when
> you install a foo-ttf package? Is it a no-op? What if there's a package
> that only ships WOFF files? A combination of TTF and WOFF?
>
> Most of the fonts are tiny and it's not worth the hassle to avoid a few
> kilobytes. It will also keep the eclass nice and clean. If you default
> to installing everything, then when a user goes out of his way to remove
> (say) WOFF, you can go ahead and just ignore WOFF files even if the
> result is something stupid like an empty package.
>
> (The webfonts might be useful for clients, by the way. If they're not
> installed locally, your browser downloads them on-demand and caches them
> for later use.)
>
>

Actually, after thinking about it some more, and doing some more
research, I think this approach is unnecessary. Unless someone can
tell me otherwise, I don't think we have any software that can handle
truetype fonts but not opentype fonts. Most if not all of these
packages use media-libs/freetype, which displays both formats just
fine. So when we have font packages that offer both ttf and otf, then
we should just install the superior format, which is OpenType.

For packages that only offer one format, we install that format.

Webfonts are also not an issue, as they are simply repackaged OpenType
fonts aimed at web delivery. But most web developers use third party
CDNs for that, such as Google Fonts. For the very few people who want
to serve WOFF fonts from their own websites, I'm sure they can locate
them as necessary.

And webfonts are not useful for clients. Users should simply install
the otf (or ttf) format of those fonts locally, and they will be
picked up instead of the webfonts.

Summarized, I propose the following policy:

1. If there is a choice of formats between otf and ttf, install only otf.
2. Do not install webfonts.

Your thoughts?
--
Cheers,

Ben | yngwin
Gentoo developer

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Re: Fonts project meeting and elections

Guilherme Amadio-2
On Sun, Mar 01, 2015 at 08:59:38PM +0800, Ben de Groot wrote:

> On 28 February 2015 at 19:52, Michael Orlitzky <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > On 02/28/2015 01:47 AM, Ben de Groot wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Since this is mostly used for web developers, I recommend to leave it
> >>> off for desktop users, but possibly on for servers, for example.
> >>
> >> If we do the use expand, we should leave it up for users to set. I
> >> suggest we default to only otf, if there is a choice. Other formats
> >> should not be installed by default, unless it's the only option for
> >> that package.
> >>
> >
> > This is going to get confusing fast -- please consider just installing
> > everything by default. If you default to "only OTF," what happens when
> > you install a foo-ttf package? Is it a no-op? What if there's a package
> > that only ships WOFF files? A combination of TTF and WOFF?
> >
> > Most of the fonts are tiny and it's not worth the hassle to avoid a few
> > kilobytes. It will also keep the eclass nice and clean. If you default
> > to installing everything, then when a user goes out of his way to remove
> > (say) WOFF, you can go ahead and just ignore WOFF files even if the
> > result is something stupid like an empty package.
> >
> > (The webfonts might be useful for clients, by the way. If they're not
> > installed locally, your browser downloads them on-demand and caches them
> > for later use.)
> >
> >
>
> Actually, after thinking about it some more, and doing some more
> research, I think this approach is unnecessary. Unless someone can
> tell me otherwise, I don't think we have any software that can handle
> truetype fonts but not opentype fonts. Most if not all of these
> packages use media-libs/freetype, which displays both formats just
> fine. So when we have font packages that offer both ttf and otf, then
> we should just install the superior format, which is OpenType.
>
> For packages that only offer one format, we install that format.
>
> Webfonts are also not an issue, as they are simply repackaged OpenType
> fonts aimed at web delivery. But most web developers use third party
> CDNs for that, such as Google Fonts. For the very few people who want
> to serve WOFF fonts from their own websites, I'm sure they can locate
> them as necessary.
>
> And webfonts are not useful for clients. Users should simply install
> the otf (or ttf) format of those fonts locally, and they will be
> picked up instead of the webfonts.
>
> Summarized, I propose the following policy:
>
> 1. If there is a choice of formats between otf and ttf, install only otf.
> 2. Do not install webfonts.

I agree with your policy, but I think it's still a good idea to offer a
mechanism to install the other formats for those who need it, maybe via
truetype and woff or webfont USE flags. LaTeX, for example, may not be
able to use OpenType fonts, unless you use XeTeX, or other newer
variant, and sometimes a package you may want to use is only available
for plain LaTeX or PDFTeX (pst-solides3d and pstricks come to mind).

We could have global USE flags for each popular font format, turn on the
flag for OpenType by default, and let users choose extra formats they
want. Another thing we might want to work on is on a way to convert
fonts for use with legacy LaTeX software that can't use OpenType files.

Best,
—Guilherme


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Re: Fonts project meeting and elections

Peter Stuge-4
Guilherme Amadio wrote:
> We could have global USE flags for each popular font format, turn on the
> flag for OpenType by default, and let users choose extra formats they
> want.

I like this suggestion very much. This is exactly what I want from Gentoo.


> Another thing we might want to work on is on a way to convert fonts
> for use with legacy LaTeX software that can't use OpenType files.

That's a good software project idea!


//Peter

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Re: Fonts project meeting and elections

Ben de Groot-2
In reply to this post by Guilherme Amadio-2
On 1 March 2015 at 23:36, Guilherme Amadio <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Sun, Mar 01, 2015 at 08:59:38PM +0800, Ben de Groot wrote:
>> On 28 February 2015 at 19:52, Michael Orlitzky <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > On 02/28/2015 01:47 AM, Ben de Groot wrote:
>> >>
>> >> If we do the use expand, we should leave it up for users to set. I
>> >> suggest we default to only otf, if there is a choice. Other formats
>> >> should not be installed by default, unless it's the only option for
>> >> that package.
>> >>
>> >
>> > This is going to get confusing fast -- please consider just installing
>> > everything by default. If you default to "only OTF," what happens when
>> > you install a foo-ttf package? Is it a no-op? What if there's a package
>> > that only ships WOFF files? A combination of TTF and WOFF?
>> >
>> > Most of the fonts are tiny and it's not worth the hassle to avoid a few
>> > kilobytes. It will also keep the eclass nice and clean. If you default
>> > to installing everything, then when a user goes out of his way to remove
>> > (say) WOFF, you can go ahead and just ignore WOFF files even if the
>> > result is something stupid like an empty package.
>> >
>> > (The webfonts might be useful for clients, by the way. If they're not
>> > installed locally, your browser downloads them on-demand and caches them
>> > for later use.)
>> >
>> >
>>
>> Actually, after thinking about it some more, and doing some more
>> research, I think this approach is unnecessary. Unless someone can
>> tell me otherwise, I don't think we have any software that can handle
>> truetype fonts but not opentype fonts. Most if not all of these
>> packages use media-libs/freetype, which displays both formats just
>> fine. So when we have font packages that offer both ttf and otf, then
>> we should just install the superior format, which is OpenType.
>>
>> For packages that only offer one format, we install that format.
>>
>> Webfonts are also not an issue, as they are simply repackaged OpenType
>> fonts aimed at web delivery. But most web developers use third party
>> CDNs for that, such as Google Fonts. For the very few people who want
>> to serve WOFF fonts from their own websites, I'm sure they can locate
>> them as necessary.
>>
>> And webfonts are not useful for clients. Users should simply install
>> the otf (or ttf) format of those fonts locally, and they will be
>> picked up instead of the webfonts.
>>
>> Summarized, I propose the following policy:
>>
>> 1. If there is a choice of formats between otf and ttf, install only otf.
>> 2. Do not install webfonts.
>
> I agree with your policy, but I think it's still a good idea to offer a
> mechanism to install the other formats for those who need it, maybe via
> truetype and woff or webfont USE flags. LaTeX, for example, may not be
> able to use OpenType fonts, unless you use XeTeX, or other newer
> variant, and sometimes a package you may want to use is only available
> for plain LaTeX or PDFTeX (pst-solides3d and pstricks come to mind).
>
> We could have global USE flags for each popular font format, turn on the
> flag for OpenType by default, and let users choose extra formats they
> want. Another thing we might want to work on is on a way to convert
> fonts for use with legacy LaTeX software that can't use OpenType files.

Alexis, can you shed some light on this from the TeX side? What font
formats can be used by various TeX packages?

--
Cheers,

Ben | yngwin
Gentoo developer

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Re: Fonts project meeting and elections

Alexis Ballier-2
On Wed, 4 Mar 2015 20:51:44 +0800
Ben de Groot <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Alexis, can you shed some light on this from the TeX side? What font
> formats can be used by various TeX packages?


Ahah :)
Short answer: All. More or less properly depending on the font and its
format.


More detailed answer:
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/LaTeX/Fonts
xetex & luatex can use freetype/fontconfig; others usually rely on
conversion to tex native format (pk+tfm), automatically I am not sure
if the font doesnt come from the texmf tree

Alexis.