Get off my lawn?

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
49 messages Options
123
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Get off my lawn?

Paul B. Henson
http://www.linuxvoice.com/interview-lennart-poettering/

So it seems the reason (in Lennart Poettering's imagination at least)
that Gentoo hasn't embraced systemd as our default init system is
because we're all old and conservative? Not like those young Arch Linux
power user whippersnappers who are much more progressive and have such a
greater interest in making the best out of their computers.

Bleh.

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Get off my lawn?

Rich Freeman
On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 6:25 PM, Paul B. Henson <[hidden email]> wrote:
> http://www.linuxvoice.com/interview-lennart-poettering/
>
> So it seems the reason (in Lennart Poettering's imagination at least)
> that Gentoo hasn't embraced systemd as our default init system is
> because we're all old and conservative?

He isn't the first to make that observation.  Many have pointed out
that the testing branch today seems a lot like stable Gentoo used to
be, and that we err too much on the side of not making big changes.

However, I'm not sure that we really are afraid of breaking things so
much that many of us have just grown comfortable with the way things
have been done.

I suspect that eventually we'll get to a point where the stage3s don't
contain init, just as they don't contain a kernel.  Besides, who wants
all those files clogging up their drives when all they want is a
chroot?  :)

Whatever, I could really care less what Lennart thinks of Gentoo, or
how you feel about Lennart.  It isn't like another systemd flamewar is
going to change anything.

--
Rich

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Get off my lawn?

Alec Ten Harmsel

On 01/16/2015 07:40 PM, Rich Freeman wrote:
> I suspect that eventually we'll get to a point where the stage3s don't
> contain init, just as they don't contain a kernel.  Besides, who wants
> all those files clogging up their drives when all they want is a
> chroot?  :)

I can't remember who said it, but I was recently told that the only
reason openrc was in the @system set was due to a couple of bugs that
are currently being worked on.

> Whatever, I could really care less what Lennart thinks of Gentoo, or
> how you feel about Lennart.  It isn't like another systemd flamewar is
> going to change anything.
>

Agreed. Maybe we need a gentoo-flamewars list ;)

Alec

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Get off my lawn?

walter s
In reply to this post by Paul B. Henson
On 01/16/2015 03:25 PM, Paul B. Henson wrote:
> http://www.linuxvoice.com/interview-lennart-poettering/
>
> So it seems the reason (in Lennart Poettering's imagination at least)
> that Gentoo hasn't embraced systemd as our default init system is
> because we're all old and conservative? Not like those young Arch Linux
> power user whippersnappers who are much more progressive and have such a
> greater interest in making the best out of their computers.
>
> Bleh.

I'd love to see a bar-chart of the age distribution of gentoo devs.

And then compare it to a similar chart of the people who hang out in
this mailing list :)



Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Get off my lawn?

Philip Webb-2
150116 walt wrote:
> I'd love to see a bar-chart of the age distribution of gentoo devs
> & compare it to a chart of the people who hang out in this mailing list :)
 
New devs usually seem to describe themselves as
"I live in a town in Germany with my wife & 2-year-old daughter ;
I am finishing my MSc in computer science ;
my hobbies are playing the guitar & riding my mountain bike".

OTOH I suspect most of us here starting computing with punched cards ...

--
========================,,============================================
SUPPORT     ___________//___,   Philip Webb
ELECTRIC   /] [] [] [] [] []|   Cities Centre, University of Toronto
TRANSIT    `-O----------O---'   purslowatchassdotutorontodotca


Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Get off my lawn?

Paul B. Henson
In reply to this post by walter s
> From: walt
> Sent: Friday, January 16, 2015 5:18 PM
>
> I'd love to see a bar-chart of the age distribution of gentoo devs.
>
> And then compare it to a similar chart of the people who hang out in
> this mailing list :)

I'm only a proxy maintainer, not a dev, but in the spirit of data analysis I will admit to being 41 ;).



Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

RE: Get off my lawn?

Paul B. Henson
In reply to this post by Rich Freeman
> From: Rich Freeman
> Sent: Friday, January 16, 2015 4:41 PM
>
> I suspect that eventually we'll get to a point where the stage3s don't
> contain init, just as they don't contain a kernel.  Besides, who wants
> all those files clogging up their drives when all they want is a
> chroot?  :)

I've got no issue with that, Gentoo is all about choice :). What is going to make me really unhappy is if/when the assimilation campaign by systemd makes supporting init system options difficult or impossible 8-/.



Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Get off my lawn?

Canek Peláez Valdés
On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 8:35 PM, Paul B. Henson <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> > From: Rich Freeman
> > Sent: Friday, January 16, 2015 4:41 PM
> >
> > I suspect that eventually we'll get to a point where the stage3s don't
> > contain init, just as they don't contain a kernel.  Besides, who wants
> > all those files clogging up their drives when all they want is a
> > chroot?  :)
>
> I've got no issue with that, Gentoo is all about choice :). What is going to make me really unhappy is if/when the assimilation campaign by systemd makes supporting init system options difficult or impossible 8-/.

From [1]:

'After nearly 12 years working on Gentoo and hearing blathering about how “Gentoo is about choice” and “Gentoo is a metadistribution,” I’ve come to a conclusion to where we need to go if we want to remain viable as a Linux distribution.'

'If we want to have any relevance, we need to have focus. Everything for everybody is a guarantee that you’ll be nothing for nobody.'

This idea (the one that Gentoo is, or should be, about "choice") is one which not all users (like myself), nor developers (like, apparently, dberkholz) agree on.

In particular, and for what it matters, I've always said that Gentoo (and Linux) is about choice, as long as there is someone willing and able to provide the choice.

Just my 0.02 cents.

Regards.

[1] http://dberkholz.com/2015/01/13/gentoo-needs-focus-to-stay-relevant/
--
Canek Peláez Valdés
Profesor de asignatura, Facultad de Ciencias
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Get off my lawn?

Alan McKinnon-2
In reply to this post by Philip Webb-2
On 17/01/2015 03:35, Philip Webb wrote:

> 150116 walt wrote:
>> I'd love to see a bar-chart of the age distribution of gentoo devs
>> & compare it to a chart of the people who hang out in this mailing list :)
>  
> New devs usually seem to describe themselves as
> "I live in a town in Germany with my wife & 2-year-old daughter ;
> I am finishing my MSc in computer science ;
> my hobbies are playing the guitar & riding my mountain bike".
>
> OTOH I suspect most of us here starting computing with punched cards ...


Can't say I had that pleasure :-)

I did start with teletype terminals, punched paper tape and a Sinclair
Research Mk14 though!


--
Alan McKinnon
[hidden email]


Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Get off my lawn?

Neil Bothwick
In reply to this post by Rich Freeman
On Fri, 16 Jan 2015 19:40:57 -0500, Rich Freeman wrote:

> He isn't the first to make that observation.  Many have pointed out
> that the testing branch today seems a lot like stable Gentoo used to
> be, and that we err too much on the side of not making big changes.
>
> However, I'm not sure that we really are afraid of breaking things so
> much that many of us have just grown comfortable with the way things
> have been done.

Also, in openrc Gentoo has an init system that is superior to those used
by other distros pre-systemd. Openrc has some of the benefits that
systemd offers other distros, like dependencies, so there is somewhat
less incentive to change.

Having said that, Gentoo does have systemd, it's just not switched on in
the "default" profiles. I think your point, which you have made before,
about init eventually being treated like the kernel, cron or system
logger, is a good one and could be said to represent the "True Gentoo
Way"[tm].


--
Neil Bothwick

Hospitality:  making your guests feel like they're at home, even if you
wish they were.

attachment0 (188 bytes) Download Attachment
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Get off my lawn?

Neil Bothwick
In reply to this post by Philip Webb-2
On Fri, 16 Jan 2015 20:35:55 -0500, Philip Webb wrote:

> OTOH I suspect most of us here starting computing with punched cards ...

And some of you admit it...


--
Neil Bothwick

Confucius say :
He who play in root, eventually kill tree!

attachment0 (188 bytes) Download Attachment
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Get off my lawn?

Rich Freeman
In reply to this post by Neil Bothwick
On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 4:09 AM, Neil Bothwick <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Fri, 16 Jan 2015 19:40:57 -0500, Rich Freeman wrote:
>
>> He isn't the first to make that observation.  Many have pointed out
>> that the testing branch today seems a lot like stable Gentoo used to
>> be, and that we err too much on the side of not making big changes.
>>
>> However, I'm not sure that we really are afraid of breaking things so
>> much that many of us have just grown comfortable with the way things
>> have been done.
>
> Also, in openrc Gentoo has an init system that is superior to those used
> by other distros pre-systemd. Openrc has some of the benefits that
> systemd offers other distros, like dependencies, so there is somewhat
> less incentive to change.
>

I definitely agree here.

We actually went through an rc change when we deployed openrc, and it
worked fine.  There were bugs not unlike what some run into with
systemd - anytime you replace something old with something new you get
regressions.  We also really too our time with the switchover, which
is something most distros don't seem to be doing with systemd (to
their users's detriment - I think burning bridges gets encouraged by
the politics to prevent backtracking).  I think it took years between
the ~arch and stable dates for baselayout-2 on Gentoo.

--
Rich

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Get off my lawn?

Grant Edwards-6
In reply to this post by Paul B. Henson
On 2015-01-16, Paul B. Henson <[hidden email]> wrote:

> http://www.linuxvoice.com/interview-lennart-poettering/
>
> So it seems the reason (in Lennart Poettering's imagination at least)
> that Gentoo hasn't embraced systemd as our default init system is
> because we're all old and conservative?

No, it's because we're practical and view computers as means to get
things done rather than ends in themselves to be put inside
transparent cases with fans that light up.

> Not like those young Arch Linux power user whippersnappers who are
> much more progressive and have such a greater interest in making the
> best out of their computers.

Or perhaps just fans of "oooooh! shiney!!"


1/2 :)

--
Grant





Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Get off my lawn?

Grant Edwards-6
In reply to this post by Rich Freeman
On 2015-01-17, Rich Freeman <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 4:09 AM, Neil Bothwick <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On Fri, 16 Jan 2015 19:40:57 -0500, Rich Freeman wrote:
>>
>>> He isn't the first to make that observation.  Many have pointed out
>>> that the testing branch today seems a lot like stable Gentoo used to
>>> be, and that we err too much on the side of not making big changes.
>>>
>>> However, I'm not sure that we really are afraid of breaking things so
>>> much that many of us have just grown comfortable with the way things
>>> have been done.
>>
>> Also, in openrc Gentoo has an init system that is superior to those used
>> by other distros pre-systemd. Openrc has some of the benefits that
>> systemd offers other distros, like dependencies, so there is somewhat
>> less incentive to change.
>>
>
> I definitely agree here.
>
> We actually went through an rc change when we deployed openrc, and it
> worked fine.

Looking back on the timeline, I see that I went through that change
with a few systems.  I have absolutely no memory of it happening.

_That_ my friends is how it's supposed to work.  Kudos to everybody
involved.

[And it's not because I have a bad memory, I still have vivid memories
of upgrades from RH 6.0 to RH 7.0 back in 2000 -- I'm talking about
the original RedHat Linux, not RHEL.]

--
Grant



Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Get off my lawn?

Grant Edwards-6
In reply to this post by Philip Webb-2
On 2015-01-17, Philip Webb <[hidden email]> wrote:

> 150116 walt wrote:
>> I'd love to see a bar-chart of the age distribution of gentoo devs
>> & compare it to a chart of the people who hang out in this mailing list :)
>  
> New devs usually seem to describe themselves as
> "I live in a town in Germany with my wife & 2-year-old daughter ;
> I am finishing my MSc in computer science ;
> my hobbies are playing the guitar & riding my mountain bike".
>
> OTOH I suspect most of us here starting computing with punched cards ...

Actually, I started with OMR IBM cards where you marked them in
pencil.  You sent your deck off to the University for scanning and
running, and week later you got your results.  At least I think they
were IBM.  They were the same form factor as regular IBM punch cards.
IIRC, each logical column had two physical columns for marks.  You put
two marks in each _logical_ column which selected the symbol _between_
the marks.  Something like this:

 [ ]A[ ]
  0   P
 [ ]B[ ]
  1   Q
 [ ]C[ ]
  2   R
 [ ]D[ ]<---
  3   S      Mark these two for 'S'
 [ ]E[ ]<---
    .  
    .  
    .  
 [ ]J[ ]
  9   Y
 [ ]K[ ]
  *   Z
 [ ]L[ ]
  /   )
 [ ]M[ ]
  +   (
 [ ]N[ ]
  -   .
 [ ]O[ ]
  |   |
  |   |
  +---+---- Mark these two for 'O'


Oviously I left out some punction characters that would have been
required.  IIRC, you only got about logical 40 columns per card.

Anybody else remember those cards?  I can't find the right set of
keywords in Google to find a picture.

It wasn't until years later that I graduated to punched cards (Woot!
80 columns) and paper-tape (Woot! light machine all over everything
else in your backpack.)

--
Grant





Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Get off my lawn?

Grant Edwards-6
On 2015-01-17, Grant Edwards <[hidden email]> wrote:

>> OTOH I suspect most of us here starting computing with punched cards ...
>
> Actually, I started with OMR IBM cards where you marked them in
> pencil.  You sent your deck off to the University for scanning and
> running, and week later you got your results.  At least I think they
> were IBM.  They were the same form factor as regular IBM punch cards.
> IIRC, each logical column had two physical columns for marks.  You put
> two marks in each _logical_ column which selected the symbol _between_
> the marks.  Something like this:
>
>  [ ]A[ ]
>   0   P
>  [ ]B[ ]
>   1   Q
>  [ ]C[ ]

I think this page from an IBM 3505 card reader manual shows the
physical spec for the OMR cards I remember, but it doesn't any
semantics:

  http://www.panix.com/~grante/files/IBM-3505-OMRcard.pdf

That shows 40 columns of 12 OMR cells, and at two columns of cells per
symbol, that would only be 20 logical columns.

If there were symbols only in the spaces between OMR cells, that would
be 11 + 11 + 12 = 34 symbols.  That's not enough to write FORTRAN IV.

So, there must have been symbols _in_ each of the cells that you could
select by marking a single cell.  That would add 24 more symbols for a
total of 56, _which_ would be enough.

Google found me this picture showing semantics for what looks like the
same physical IBM OMR card, but I don't think it's the layout I
remember using:

  http://www.panix.com/~grante/files/IBM-OMRcard.jpg

It could be that the layout I remember using was something local to
the University where we sent the cards to be run...

--
Grant


Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Get off my lawn?

allan gottlieb
In reply to this post by Alan McKinnon-2
On Fri, Jan 16 2015, Alan McKinnon wrote:

> On 17/01/2015 03:35, Philip Webb wrote:
>>
>> OTOH I suspect most of us here starting computing with punched cards ...
>
> Can't say I had that pleasure :-)
>
> I did start with teletype terminals, punched paper tape and a Sinclair
> Research Mk14 though!

Paper tape, bendix G15 and IBM 650 (1962).
allan

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Get off my lawn?

Rich Freeman
In reply to this post by Grant Edwards-6
On Jan 17, 2015 1:56 PM, "Grant Edwards" <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On 2015-01-16, Paul B. Henson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > http://www.linuxvoice.com/interview-lennart-poettering/
> >
> > So it seems the reason (in Lennart Poettering's imagination at least)
> > that Gentoo hasn't embraced systemd as our default init system is
> > because we're all old and conservative?
>
> No, it's because we're practical and view computers as means to get
> things done rather than ends in themselves to be put inside
> transparent cases with fans that light up.

Speak for yourself. :)  I did comment on my thoughts in this area in
Donnie's thread.  Gentoo (IMHO) tends not to be the best distro for
doing anything in particular.  I find that its best feature is that it
is reasonably good at doing just about anything - it is a
jack-of-all-trades.

--
Rich

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Get off my lawn?

Daniel Frey-6
In reply to this post by Paul B. Henson
On 01/16/2015 03:25 PM, Paul B. Henson wrote:
> http://www.linuxvoice.com/interview-lennart-poettering/
>

I find it amusing that in the second question he laments on how Upstart
was a pain in the ass to deal with because Canonical made it difficult
to contribute code. I recall not too long ago they weren't exactly
helpful while acknowledging a couple of serious bugs. Even Linus at one
point said to straighten up or we won't accept commits from them.

:-)

Dan



Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Get off my lawn?

Alan McKinnon-2
In reply to this post by Rich Freeman
On 18/01/2015 04:04, Rich Freeman wrote:

> On Jan 17, 2015 1:56 PM, "Grant Edwards" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> On 2015-01-16, Paul B. Henson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> http://www.linuxvoice.com/interview-lennart-poettering/
>>>
>>> So it seems the reason (in Lennart Poettering's imagination at least)
>>> that Gentoo hasn't embraced systemd as our default init system is
>>> because we're all old and conservative?
>>
>> No, it's because we're practical and view computers as means to get
>> things done rather than ends in themselves to be put inside
>> transparent cases with fans that light up.
>
> Speak for yourself. :)  I did comment on my thoughts in this area in
> Donnie's thread.  Gentoo (IMHO) tends not to be the best distro for
> doing anything in particular.  I find that its best feature is that it
> is reasonably good at doing just about anything - it is a
> jack-of-all-trades.


For years I've felt Gentoo excels if you need to do something that
deviates from what mainstream binary distros do, and this is because we
have a fully functional toolchain that is built to handle deviations
from default with ease. This is what USE is all about.

A few examples come to mind:

1. You have a large server farm, all identical, and setting them up that
way on a binary distro is difficult
2. You need to build on big hardware and deploy on small hardware
3. You need specific features enabled in the system that a binary distro
doesn't provide


So I'm not quite in agreement with your last sentence; Gentoo is very
very good at giving you exactly what you want :-)



--
Alan McKinnon
[hidden email]


123