Help offered - Portage tree

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Help offered - Portage tree

Fabio Erculiani-4
Hi all,
I'm sure I'll find some sabayon-hater here, but my purpose won't be
answering to them.
I offer my help to fix DEPEND/RDEPEND split issues which is causing me
a lot of headaches (along with localizations).
For reference, please have a look here: http://planet.sabayonlinux.org/?p=105

After having discussed with one of your dev about it, he suggested me
to ask here looking for a mentor. If there's anything I can do, I'm
ready.

Despite some of you might think, I love Gentoo since 2001 :)

Cheers
--
Fabio Erculiani
Information and Communication Technologies Consultant
Sabayon Linux Chief Architect
http://www.sabayonlinux.org
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Re: Help offered - Portage tree

Jan Kundrát
Fabio Erculiani wrote:
> I offer my help to fix DEPEND/RDEPEND split issues which is causing me
> a lot of headaches (along with localizations).
> For reference, please have a look here: http://planet.sabayonlinux.org/?p=105

"The name [hidden email] is not a valid username. Either you
misspelled it, or the person has not registered for a Bugzilla
account.", that's all what our bugzilla knows about you.

Either you're using a different e-mail address there or you really
haven't reported a single bug to us in that seven years.

It would help if you file bugs against respective packages or provide a
list of examples mentioning what exactly needs fixing. You can't
reasonably expect us to act based on a post in $random_blog.

With love,
-jkt

--
cd /local/pub && more beer > /dev/mouth


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Re: Help offered - Portage tree

Fabio Erculiani-4
Hi Jan,
I'm registered with lxnay <at> lxnaydesign <dot> net.
I know what you mean, but take into account I don't have much time
left for the reporting. What I ask is either build a communication
channel or getting me able to fix stuff, obviously after having
contacted the respective maintainers and talked about the issue. Well,
I am saying this utopic thing just because I don't even have time to
track down all the issues I found and then report, most of the time I
end up copying the ebuild from the tree into our overlay and fix. I
tried to report a few bugs, but the response time is quite big and I
always have to be quick.
So, to sum up, if we can build a better communication way it could be
useful for both sides.


On 3/13/08, Jan Kundrát <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Fabio Erculiani wrote:
>  > I offer my help to fix DEPEND/RDEPEND split issues which is causing me
>  > a lot of headaches (along with localizations).
>  > For reference, please have a look here: http://planet.sabayonlinux.org/?p=105
>
>
> "The name [hidden email] is not a valid username. Either you
>  misspelled it, or the person has not registered for a Bugzilla
>  account.", that's all what our bugzilla knows about you.
>
>  Either you're using a different e-mail address there or you really
>  haven't reported a single bug to us in that seven years.
>
>  It would help if you file bugs against respective packages or provide a
>  list of examples mentioning what exactly needs fixing. You can't
>  reasonably expect us to act based on a post in $random_blog.
>
>  With love,
>  -jkt
>
>
>  --
>  cd /local/pub && more beer > /dev/mouth
>
>
>


--
Fabio Erculiani
Information and Communication Technologies Consultant
Sabayon Linux Chief Architect
http://www.sabayonlinux.org
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Re: Help offered - Portage tree

Robin H. Johnson-2
On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 12:57:29AM +0100, Fabio Erculiani wrote:
> So, to sum up, if we can build a better communication way it could be
> useful for both sides.
- "Most of the Gentoo ebuilds don't have the two lists split"
I'd certainly welcome hearing about any supposed DEPEND/RDEPEND issues
in my packages (both those I directly maintain as well as a good swath
of those I maintain via herds), as well cases where you see a some deps
not declared at all (and also in the indirect deps).

- "There are TOO MANY USE flags while instead packages SHOULD BE split"
No. In general, Gentoo is one package per upstream idea of a package.
It's been that way for a long time, and I don't foresee any specific
need to change it soon. Even if you did, there are still at least the
same number of total combinations to test, if not more. If you really
want to make progress here, get various upstreams to split stuff better.

- "Localizations should be split too"
Again, get upstream to put them separately, for all cases where they are
just files that are automatically detected, and nothing regarding
available locales is compiled or configured into the binaries or
libraries.

- "Even if I found a lot of these bugs daily..."
If you want to report bugs quickly, see pybugz, or use the Bugzilla
templating facility (I prefer it myself). Response time is large for any
bugs generally, because we do a lot of stuff. It's in your best
interests to send the fixes back to Gentoo, because that means you don't
need to continually port fixes in your overlay when newer versions are
released.

For a lot of these issues, I'd love either a patch that you've uploaded,
or a direct link to a changeset on some VCS. Note: NOT the new file, but
a link directly to the changeset.

- "What I am asking Gentoo Foundation is, let me fix them"
Apply to be a developer, then you can fix them. I don't personally have
any opinion (positive or negative) about Sabayon, but a former coworker
of mine was a big fan.

--
Robin Hugh Johnson
Gentoo Linux Developer & Infra Guy
E-Mail     : [hidden email]
GnuPG FP   : 11AC BA4F 4778 E3F6 E4ED  F38E B27B 944E 3488 4E85

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Re: Help offered - Portage tree

Alec Warner-2
On 3/12/08, Robin H. Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 12:57:29AM +0100, Fabio Erculiani wrote:
>  > So, to sum up, if we can build a better communication way it could be
>  > useful for both sides.

I'm going to steal robin's issue summary ;)

>
> - "Most of the Gentoo ebuilds don't have the two lists split"

Did we ever set RDEPEND=DEPEND or vice versa automatically?  Maybe it
never went into EAPI=0.  In either case I'm sure most maintainers
would appreciate feedback in this area.

>
>  - "There are TOO MANY USE flags while instead packages SHOULD BE split"

So I would be willing to challenge the age old assertion that robin
mentioned.  The historical problem is that users need to be able to
find shit.  The easiest way for them to do so is for us to use the
same names as upstream.

mysql is just mysql; it isn't mysql-server, it isn't mysql-server-5,
it isn't mysql-client-yourmom.  It is just mysql.

So a bigger problem for you is that you want 2 packages really.  1
client and 1 server.  THe only way to do that now is to build mysql
twice and the existing binpkg format doesn't let you do that?

>
>  - "Localizations should be split too"

As robin stated this is really more of an upstream problem.  I really
don't see why we can't design software that just loads localization
shit at runtime.

Maybe some eselect-localization thing could be used to help fetch
extra languages; certainly I think rebuilding the entire package to
add languages is BS.

We could have eselect parse the DEPEND string and LINGUAS to try and
figure out what languages a package supports and installing new
languages would just be eselect-localization CPV +/-lang.

Of course I know jack shit about localization so maybe someone who
knows more can comment ;)

-Alec
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Re: Help offered - Portage tree

Denis Dupeyron
In reply to this post by Fabio Erculiani-4
On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 12:35 AM, Fabio Erculiani
<[hidden email]> wrote:
>  After having discussed with one of your dev about it, he suggested me
>  to ask here looking for a mentor. If there's anything I can do, I'm
>  ready.

On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 12:57 AM, Fabio Erculiani
<[hidden email]> wrote:
>  I know what you mean, but take into account I don't have much time
>  left for the reporting. What I ask is [...]  getting me able to fix stuff

So you don't have time to file bugs but you would have time to fix
them ? Interesting...

In any case, we require users to have a consistent history of helping
the project before they are considered for recruitment. What you are
doing for Sabayon is great but it can't be taken into account. Please
find below some information that may be useful to get you started.

There are many ways you can help. Two good ways to start helping out
are proposing solutions for bugs [1] and contributing to an overlay
[2] like Sunrise for example [3]. There is more information on how to
get involved with overlay development at [4]. When your contributions
become significant enough, developers may contact you (or you can
contact them). You may also want to have a look at the staffing needs
page [5].

You will need to read the Gentoo Documentation Resources [6], and more
specifically the Gentoo Developer Handbook [7] and the Gentoo
Development Guide [8].

Another way to help, especially for non-technical projects, is to
contact people directly [9]. Be aware that they can be away though, so
be patient, try others on the same project, and finally get back to us
in case you fail to reach anybody.

Do not hesitate to contact recruiters in the future in case you need
more information.

Best regards,
Denis.

[1] http://bugs.gentoo.org/
[2] http://overlays.gentoo.org/
[3] http://overlays.gentoo.org/proj/sunrise/
[4] http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/overlays/userguide.xml#doc_chap3
[5] http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/staffing-needs/
[6] http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/index.xml?catid=gentoodev
[7] http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/handbook/handbook.xml
[8] http://devmanual.gentoo.org/
[9] http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/index.xml?showlevel=2
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Re: Help offered - Portage tree

Thilo Bangert-3
In reply to this post by Fabio Erculiani-4

> end up copying the ebuild from the tree into our overlay and fix.

great! where is it? does it have a webvc or trac interface?
thanks

Thilo



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Re: Help offered - Portage tree

Fabio Erculiani-4
media-libs/x264-svn -> dev-lang/yasm
dev-libs/lzo -> dev-lang/nasm
sys-apps/attr -> sys-devel/autoconf
x11-libs/qt:3 (I reported it a while ago and it got fixed, it was a real mess)
net-dialup/capisuite -> sys-devel/autoconf
dev-libs/xmlsec -> sys-devel/autoconf
x11-misc/fluxbg -> sys-devel/autoconf
media-video/effectv -> dev-lang/nasm
net-voip/linphone -> dev-lang/nasm
media-sound/gogo -> dev-lang/nasm
sys-boot/lilo -> sys-devel/bin86
app-text/iso-codes -> sys-devel/automake

These depend on sys-devel/bison, are they correct?
app-office/mdbtools-0.6_pre1-r1
www-servers/boa-0.94.14_rc21
media-video/sswf-1.8.0-r1
net-firewall/itval-1.0
app-office/openoffice-2.3.1-r1
sci-geosciences/grass-6.0.1
sci-geosciences/grass-6.2.1
media-gfx/gliv-1.9.6

These depend on sys-devel/make
sci-geosciences/grass-6.0.1
sci-geosciences/grass-6.2.1

These depend on sys-devel/gcc (remember, only RDEPENDs here)
app-text/pdftk-1.41
net-irc/inspircd-1.1.14
app-benchmarks/piozone-1.0-r2
sci-chemistry/xdrawchem-1.9.9
sci-geosciences/grass-6.0.1
dev-lang/mono-1.2.6-r1
sci-geosciences/grass-6.2.1
www-apache/anyterm-1.1.16
dev-lang/ghc-6.8.2
sci-libs/hdf5-1.6.6

x11-proto/xineramaproto:
gnome-extra/gnome-screensaver-2.18.2-r1
media-video/ogle-0.9.2-r1

sabayon server # python reagent database query depends --quiet
x11-proto/printproto
x11-libs/libXp-1.0.0
app-editors/nvu-1.0-r4
x11-libs/openmotif-2.3.0
x11-libs/openmotif-2.2.3-r9

sabayon server # python reagent database query depends --quiet x11-proto/xproto
x11-libs/libXevie-1.0.2
x11-libs/libXdmcp-1.0.2
x11-plugins/asclock-2.0.12-r1
dev-libs/libstroke-0.5.1
sys-devel/gcc-3.4.6-r2
x11-libs/libXv-1.0.3
sys-devel/gcc-4.2.2
x11-libs/libXcomposite-0.4.0
x11-plugins/wmmixer-2.0_beta4-r1
x11-plugins/fsviewer-0.2.5
net-www/gnash-0.8.1-r1
x11-libs/libSM-1.0.3
dev-lang/ocaml-3.10.1
x11-libs/libXt-1.0.5
x11-libs/libXaw-1.0.4
x11-libs/libXcursor-1.1.9
gnome-base/nautilus-2.20.0-r1
media-gfx/gifsicle-1.44
x11-libs/xforms-1.0.90-r1
x11-libs/dnd-1.1-r1
x11-libs/libICE-1.0.4
x11-libs/libXft-2.1.12-r90
x11-terms/eterm-0.9.4
media-gfx/tgif-4.1.45
x11-libs/libFS-1.0.0
x11-libs/libXdamage-1.1.1
x11-libs/libXres-1.0.3
x11-libs/libXrandr-1.2.2
x11-libs/libXfont-1.3.1-r1
x11-libs/libXrender-0.9.4
x11-libs/libXau-1.0.3
app-editors/xvile-9.4d-r1
x11-libs/libast-0.7
media-plugins/vdr-xineliboutput-1.0.0_rc2_p20080120
x11-libs/libXvMC-1.0.4
x11-libs/libxsettings-client-0.10
net-dialup/isdn4k-utils-3.11_pre20071003
x11-libs/libX11-1.1.3
x11-libs/libXmu-1.0.3
x11-misc/slim-1.3.0-r1
net-mail/gnubiff-2.2.5
x11-libs/libXfixes-4.0.3
sci-mathematics/snns-4.2-r7

^^^ do they need x11-proto/xproto as RDEPEND?

My time on it for today is over. I'm busy preparing a release, sorry.
Probably some of them are ok, but I don't think all.
Using http://packages.sabayonlinux.org interface you can query all our bins.

--
Fabio Erculiani
Information and Communication Technologies Consultant
Sabayon Linux Chief Architect
http://www.sabayonlinux.org
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Re: Help offered - Portage tree

Robin H. Johnson-2
On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 10:24:23AM +0100, Fabio Erculiani wrote:
> media-libs/x264-svn -> dev-lang/yasm
> dev-libs/lzo -> dev-lang/nasm
I responded to you on IRC about these two, please see my message there,
as from everything I can see, the DEPs are actually correct.
(The config.log for lzo-1 indicates other reasons that it isn't using
nasm, which should probably get fixed for both x86 and amd64).

> sys-apps/attr -> sys-devel/autoconf
autoconf is in the DEPEND already.
Do you want it not there?

Not reviewing the rest right now, I'm going to bed instead (03h26 here).

--
Robin Hugh Johnson
Gentoo Linux Developer & Infra Guy
E-Mail     : [hidden email]
GnuPG FP   : 11AC BA4F 4778 E3F6 E4ED  F38E B27B 944E 3488 4E85

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Re: Help offered - Portage tree

Fabio Erculiani-4
Hi Robin,
first of all.
What I need is _basic_ respect on #gentoo-dev
You here seem all polite, but there you like playing me.
This is not a good start.

On 3/13/08, Robin H. Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 10:24:23AM +0100, Fabio Erculiani wrote:
>  > media-libs/x264-svn -> dev-lang/yasm
>  > dev-libs/lzo -> dev-lang/nasm
>
> I responded to you on IRC about these two, please see my message there,
>  as from everything I can see, the DEPs are actually correct.
>  (The config.log for lzo-1 indicates other reasons that it isn't using
>  nasm, which should probably get fixed for both x86 and amd64).
>
>
>  > sys-apps/attr -> sys-devel/autoconf
>
> autoconf is in the DEPEND already.
>  Do you want it not there?
>
>  Not reviewing the rest right now, I'm going to bed instead (03h26 here).
>
>
>  --
>  Robin Hugh Johnson
>  Gentoo Linux Developer & Infra Guy
>  E-Mail     : [hidden email]
>  GnuPG FP   : 11AC BA4F 4778 E3F6 E4ED  F38E B27B 944E 3488 4E85
>
>


--
Fabio Erculiani
Information and Communication Technologies Consultant
Sabayon Linux Chief Architect
http://www.sabayonlinux.org
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Re: Help offered - Portage tree

Fabio Erculiani-4
[02:31] <Halcy0n> lxnay: we offer all of our work that you base your
distribution off, and you don't contribute back at all, in any way.

^^ This is a really stupid sentence. It seems some of you don't even
realize how many users we brought to Gentoo, and this is really sad.
You see, people like Halcy0n, agaffney, zlin keep us away from
interacting with you. What we do is just trying to do our best, on the
desktop, aggregating new technologies and bringing them to users.
If you want to stop bad press, you (all) should firstly become more
gentle with users and external contributors. I am not talking to you
directly Robin, but to whom are quite annoying and provocative. I know
that the majority of you have been always kind, but I will never hang
on #gentoo-dev anymore just to be played around giving me voice until
I annoy someone with my POV. This is not a democratic way, let's talk
publicly here, without hiding in a development channel, we probably
get more visibility, don't we?

I will review your stuff on lzo probably tomorrow, hope won't be a problem.

On 3/13/08, Fabio Erculiani <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Robin,
>  first of all.
>  What I need is _basic_ respect on #gentoo-dev
>  You here seem all polite, but there you like playing me.
>  This is not a good start.
>
>
>  On 3/13/08, Robin H. Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>  > On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 10:24:23AM +0100, Fabio Erculiani wrote:
>  >  > media-libs/x264-svn -> dev-lang/yasm
>  >  > dev-libs/lzo -> dev-lang/nasm
>  >
>  > I responded to you on IRC about these two, please see my message there,
>  >  as from everything I can see, the DEPs are actually correct.
>  >  (The config.log for lzo-1 indicates other reasons that it isn't using
>  >  nasm, which should probably get fixed for both x86 and amd64).
>  >
>  >
>  >  > sys-apps/attr -> sys-devel/autoconf
>  >
>  > autoconf is in the DEPEND already.
>  >  Do you want it not there?
>  >
>  >  Not reviewing the rest right now, I'm going to bed instead (03h26 here).
>  >
>  >
>  >  --
>  >  Robin Hugh Johnson
>  >  Gentoo Linux Developer & Infra Guy
>  >  E-Mail     : [hidden email]
>  >  GnuPG FP   : 11AC BA4F 4778 E3F6 E4ED  F38E B27B 944E 3488 4E85
>  >
>  >
>
>
>
> --
>  Fabio Erculiani
>  Information and Communication Technologies Consultant
>  Sabayon Linux Chief Architect
>  http://www.sabayonlinux.org
>


--
Fabio Erculiani
Information and Communication Technologies Consultant
Sabayon Linux Chief Architect
http://www.sabayonlinux.org
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Re: Help offered - Portage tree

Ryan Hill-3
Fabio Erculiani wrote:
> [02:31] <Halcy0n> lxnay: we offer all of our work that you base your
> distribution off, and you don't contribute back at all, in any way.
>
> ^^ This is a really stupid sentence. It seems some of you don't even
> realize how many users we brought to Gentoo, and this is really sad.

For those of you playing along at home, the conversation went something like this:

<lxnay> hey there, i found a whole bunch of broken stuff in your tree
<devs> cool, can you file some reports in bugzilla so we can fix it?
<lxnay> no, i'm too busy and you guys are slow.  give me cvs access.
<devs> uh....  no?
<lxnay> you're stupid.


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mips, treecleaner,                        for a fact or just for effect
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Re: Help offered - Portage tree

Natanael Copa-3
In reply to this post by Fabio Erculiani-4

On Thu, 2008-03-13 at 00:35 +0100, Fabio Erculiani wrote:

> I offer my help to fix DEPEND/RDEPEND split issues which is causing me
> a lot of headaches (along with localizations).
> For reference, please have a look here: http://planet.sabayonlinux.org/?p=105

I'm another distro builder that uses the Gentoo framework. I can only
agree. I had to roll my own binary package format and after a short
while I had to do the dependencies myself and just ignore RDEPEND since
it was close to useless.

While Gentoo is fantasitc to build stuff, the binary packagement has
some serious issues. It would be really nice if Gentoo could be better
on supporting other binary only package managers.

-nc

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Re: Help offered - Portage tree

Petteri Räty-2
Natanael Copa kirjoitti:

> On Thu, 2008-03-13 at 00:35 +0100, Fabio Erculiani wrote:
>
>> I offer my help to fix DEPEND/RDEPEND split issues which is causing me
>> a lot of headaches (along with localizations).
>> For reference, please have a look here: http://planet.sabayonlinux.org/?p=105
>
> I'm another distro builder that uses the Gentoo framework. I can only
> agree. I had to roll my own binary package format and after a short
> while I had to do the dependencies myself and just ignore RDEPEND since
> it was close to useless.
 >

http://bugs.gentoo.org

>
> While Gentoo is fantasitc to build stuff, the binary packagement has
> some serious issues. It would be really nice if Gentoo could be better
> on supporting other binary only package managers.
>
> -nc
>

Expected as devs rarely use bin pkgs at all and the Portage support is
what it is.

Regards,
Petteri


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Re: Help offered - Portage tree

Rémi Cardona-3
Natanael and Fabio,

Petteri Räty a écrit :
> Natanael Copa kirjoitti:
>>
>> I'm another distro builder that uses the Gentoo framework. I can only
>> agree. I had to roll my own binary package format and after a short
>> while I had to do the dependencies myself and just ignore RDEPEND since
>> it was close to useless.
 >
> http://bugs.gentoo.org

I know that we (in the Gnome Herd) will try to fix things when they are
reported and I have no doubt other devs will do so as well.

But a proper bug report is the way to go if you things to move in any
direction.

> Expected as devs rarely use bin pkgs at all and the Portage support is
> what it is.

+1 on that and if people who use binary pkgs don't tell us what breaks,
we won't know.

Cheers

--
Rémi Cardona
LRI, INRIA
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Re: Help offered - Portage tree

Petteri Räty-2
In reply to this post by Fabio Erculiani-4
Fabio Erculiani kirjoitti:
> [02:31] <Halcy0n> lxnay: we offer all of our work that you base your
> distribution off, and you don't contribute back at all, in any way.
>
> ^^ This is a really stupid sentence. It seems some of you don't even
> realize how many users we brought to Gentoo, and this is really sad.
 >

Nope it's not. I already told you on IRC that you weren't understanding
Halcy0n properly, at least from my POV. You say you have to maintain
many local changes in your overlay and that you don't have the time to
send them back upstream (via the official contribution method,
bugs.gentoo.org). For me that means that you aren't contributing back
upstream.

Regards,
Petteri


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Re: Help offered - Portage tree

Steve Dibb
In reply to this post by Fabio Erculiani-4
Fabio Erculiani wrote:
> media-libs/x264-svn -> dev-lang/yasm
> dev-libs/lzo -> dev-lang/nasm
> sys-apps/attr -> sys-devel/autoconf

*snip*

Some of those aren't broken, and I just fixed a few media ones in the
tree, but that list is similiar to what I was asking for earlier, and a
good way to contribute.

Thanks

Steve
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Re: Help offered - Portage tree

Bo Ørsted Andresen-2
In reply to this post by Natanael Copa-3
On Thursday 13 March 2008 14:34:50 Natanael Copa wrote:

> On Thu, 2008-03-13 at 00:35 +0100, Fabio Erculiani wrote:
> > I offer my help to fix DEPEND/RDEPEND split issues which is causing me
> > a lot of headaches (along with localizations).
> > For reference, please have a look here:
> > http://planet.sabayonlinux.org/?p=105
>
> I'm another distro builder that uses the Gentoo framework. I can only
> agree. I had to roll my own binary package format and after a short
> while I had to do the dependencies myself and just ignore RDEPEND since
> it was close to useless.
>
> While Gentoo is fantasitc to build stuff, the binary packagement has
> some serious issues. It would be really nice if Gentoo could be better
> on supporting other binary only package managers.
We can all agree that Gentoo's binary package support leaves a lot of room for
improvement. But to fix that you need to come up with real solutions and be
prepared to discuss them here and through our bugzilla. And accept the fact
that it will take time... On top of that you need to be able to accept that
we might not agree with your proposed solution for some of the issues...

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Bo Andresen
Gentoo KDE Dev

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Re: Help offered - Portage tree

Denis Dupeyron
In reply to this post by Fabio Erculiani-4
On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 2:10 PM, Fabio Erculiani <[hidden email]> wrote:
> [02:31] <Halcy0n> lxnay: we offer all of our work that you base your
>  distribution off, and you don't contribute back at all, in any way.
>
>  ^^ This is a really stupid sentence.

While I would agree Halcy0n's statement is slightly exaggerated, it's
somewhat true. There are exactly 26 non-duplicates in our bugzilla
that you either filed or commented on. You have to admit that for
somebody who's been a user for 7 years and who's been "architecting"
(your word) a distribution based on Gentoo for 3 years (or more ?
can't remember) this is a ridiculously low number. How do you want us
to help you if you don't give us any feedback on what you need ? We're
not very good at communicating but we have at least set up some tools
for you to use, and the most important of them in your particular case
is I believe bugzilla. And don't ask us to read you blog, we can't
possibly read everybody's blog. Feedback is part of the game in the
open source world. Gentoo itself gives a lot of feedback to upstream
projects using upstream's communications tools. If you don't play the
game, one thing is sure is that you'll never win.

> It seems some of you don't even
>  realize how many users we brought to Gentoo, and this is really sad.

I'm not sure we should thank you for this. Not that we don't care, but
our aim isn't really to compete against say Ubuntu in the users
department. Some of us are really happy of the success of Sabayon,
there's a place for everybody. We don't make any money out of Gentoo,
and do not intend to. We're only a bunch of volunteers who waste their
free time doing something they think may be needed. It seems you don't
even realize how many users we brought to Sabayon, and this is really
sad.

>  You see, people like Halcy0n, agaffney, zlin keep us away from
>  interacting with you.

I wouldn't agree with you here. But even if you were right, we live in
stupid world and Gentoo doesn't claim to be better than what it's made
of. Note that we're trying to though. But in the end there are always
going to be obnoxious people everywhere. If you give up on the nice
guys because of the bad guys, you lose and the bad guys win. That's
life.

>  If you want to stop bad press, you (all) should firstly become more
>  gentle with users and external contributors.

I'm trying to believe you are not threatening here because *that*
would be stupid. We'd love to be gentle with you. You've just got to
make it happen.

Denis.
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Re: Help offered - Portage tree

Ben de Groot-2
In reply to this post by Fabio Erculiani-4
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Fabio Erculiani wrote:
| [02:31] <Halcy0n> lxnay: we offer all of our work that you base your
| distribution off, and you don't contribute back at all, in any way.
|
| ^^ This is a really stupid sentence. It seems some of you don't even
| realize how many users we brought to Gentoo, and this is really sad.

Saying 'this is stupid' won't convince anyone and moreover damage your attempt
to build any positive relationship. If the statement is false, simply show with
a few examples that it isn't true. To react to a (perceived) personal attack
with anger (even if justified) and (more) mudslinging is not going to achieve
anything than a further breakdown of communication. Try a more political
approach, if you want to get your point across.

Personally, I admire your attempt to contribute back and get bugs fixed. I am
all for better relationships between Gentoo and Sabayon, because I believe
cooperation will be to our mutual benefit. So I think the discussion should
concentrate on:
~    - what are the best ways to contribute
~    - what are the best channels to get bugs fixed
~    - how could we streamline these processes

I can't believe there is any serious dev that would not want improvement. On the
other hand, we are all volunteers and have limited time. Also, there is the
natural tendency in most people to stick with the known, to resist changes. And
in a big organisation such as Gentoo there will always be various differing
points of view. The resulting bureaucracy and politics is something we have to
live with, improving it where we can.

Therefore, I think that if you really want to improve things, you will have to
work with the current infrastructure. Keep filing bugs in bugzilla, keep
contributing patches, keep trying to work with other devs, and you _will_ gain
respect. That way you will also be in a much better position to suggest changes
and to propose ways of streamlining processes.

It may take a fair bit of investing time and even swallowing pride. But if you
do the work, and let personal attacks and annoyances slide off your thick skin,
you _will_ create a win-win situation.

Honestly wishing you the best,

Ben
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