Lastrite: media-gfx/pngcrush

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Lastrite: media-gfx/pngcrush

Samuli Suominen-4
# Samuli Suominen <[hidden email]> (08 Oct 2011)
# Fails to compile against system libpng15, bug 356127
# Removal in 14 days
media-gfx/pngcrush

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Re: Lastrite: media-gfx/pngcrush

Matt Turner-5
On Sat, Oct 8, 2011 at 4:47 AM, Samuli Suominen <[hidden email]> wrote:
> # Samuli Suominen <[hidden email]> (08 Oct 2011)
> # Fails to compile against system libpng15, bug 356127
> # Removal in 14 days

14 days?

> media-gfx/pngcrush

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Re: Lastrite: media-gfx/pngcrush

Samuli Suominen-4
On 10/08/2011 04:19 PM, Matt Turner wrote:
> On Sat, Oct 8, 2011 at 4:47 AM, Samuli Suominen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> # Samuli Suominen <[hidden email]> (08 Oct 2011)
>> # Fails to compile against system libpng15, bug 356127
>> # Removal in 14 days
>
> 14 days?

approx. 14 days and counting to CC archteams in the libpng15
stabilization bug.

the same day the tree is fully prepared for it.
the same day amd64 moves it to stable.

should come as no suprise to anyone at this point...

>
>> media-gfx/pngcrush
>


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Re: Lastrite: media-gfx/pngcrush

Markos Chandras-2
In reply to this post by Matt Turner-5
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

On 10/08/2011 02:19 PM, Matt Turner wrote:
> On Sat, Oct 8, 2011 at 4:47 AM, Samuli Suominen
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> # Samuli Suominen <[hidden email]> (08 Oct 2011) # Fails to
>> compile against system libpng15, bug 356127 # Removal in 14 days
>
> 14 days?
>
>> media-gfx/pngcrush
>
We can't really wait forever for slacking maintainers to fix their
packages. amd64 is almost ready to have libpng-1.5 stable in the very
near future

- --
Regards,
Markos Chandras / Gentoo Linux Developer / Key ID: B4AFF2C2
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Re: Lastrite: media-gfx/pngcrush

Fabian Groffen-2
On 08-10-2011 15:20:56 +0100, Markos Chandras wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA512
>
> On 10/08/2011 02:19 PM, Matt Turner wrote:
> > On Sat, Oct 8, 2011 at 4:47 AM, Samuli Suominen
> > <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >> # Samuli Suominen <[hidden email]> (08 Oct 2011) # Fails to
> >> compile against system libpng15, bug 356127 # Removal in 14 days
> >
> > 14 days?
> >
> >> media-gfx/pngcrush
> >
> We can't really wait forever for slacking maintainers to fix their
> packages. amd64 is almost ready to have libpng-1.5 stable in the very
> near future
http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/handbook/handbook.xml?part=2&chap=5#doc_chap8


--
Fabian Groffen
Gentoo on a different level

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Re: Lastrite: media-gfx/pngcrush

Markos Chandras-2
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

On 10/08/2011 03:28 PM, Fabian Groffen wrote:

> On 08-10-2011 15:20:56 +0100, Markos Chandras wrote:
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512
>>
>> On 10/08/2011 02:19 PM, Matt Turner wrote:
>>> On Sat, Oct 8, 2011 at 4:47 AM, Samuli Suominen
>>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> # Samuli Suominen <[hidden email]> (08 Oct 2011) #
>>>> Fails to compile against system libpng15, bug 356127 #
>>>> Removal in 14 days
>>>
>>> 14 days?
>>>
>>>> media-gfx/pngcrush
>>>
>> We can't really wait forever for slacking maintainers to fix
>> their packages. amd64 is almost ready to have libpng-1.5 stable
>> in the very near future
>
> http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/handbook/handbook.xml?part=2&chap=5#doc_chap8
>
>
>
In fact, like Samuli said, the waiting period is 14+<days for ATs to
test is an become stable> which will be more than 30. No reason to
s/14/30/

- --
Regards,
Markos Chandras / Gentoo Linux Developer / Key ID: B4AFF2C2
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Re: Lastrite: media-gfx/pngcrush

Fabian Groffen-2
On 08-10-2011 15:49:00 +0100, Markos Chandras wrote:
> >> We can't really wait forever for slacking maintainers to fix
> >> their packages. amd64 is almost ready to have libpng-1.5 stable
> >> in the very near future
> >
> > http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/handbook/handbook.xml?part=2&chap=5#doc_chap8
> >
> In fact, like Samuli said, the waiting period is 14+<days for ATs to
> test is an become stable> which will be more than 30. No reason to
> s/14/30/

No reason then to confuse people by suggesting the opposite either.


--
Fabian Groffen
Gentoo on a different level

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Re: Lastrite: media-gfx/pngcrush

Rich Freeman
In reply to this post by Markos Chandras-2
On Sat, Oct 8, 2011 at 10:20 AM, Markos Chandras <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 10/08/2011 02:19 PM, Matt Turner wrote:
>> 14 days?
> We can't really wait forever for slacking maintainers to fix their
> packages. amd64 is almost ready to have libpng-1.5 stable in the very
> near future
>

Didn't we just do this thread a few days ago?  :)

Matt - will an extra 16 days make any difference?  This bug has been
open since Feb.  Will something happen in 30 days that won't happen in
14?

Next, time, though posting an "FYI - we're masking blockers on Oct
7th" or whatever would probably make some happier.

If the extra 16 days will actually accomplish something beyond just
delaying libpng then we can debate the finer points of policy.
However, if we're just arguing policy for its own sake then I don't
see the value.  Perhaps a package maintainer might have the "right" to
a few weeks to fix things, but in the end you have to put the distro
and its users first.  You can do that either by speaking up or
standing aside, but if you're going to speak up, then make sure you
can follow through.

Rich

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Re: Lastrite: media-gfx/pngcrush

Fabian Groffen-2
On 08-10-2011 11:05:08 -0400, Rich Freeman wrote:
> If the extra 16 days will actually accomplish something beyond just
> delaying libpng then we can debate the finer points of policy.
> However, if we're just arguing policy for its own sake then I don't
> see the value.  Perhaps a package maintainer might have the "right" to
> a few weeks to fix things, but in the end you have to put the distro
> and its users first.  You can do that either by speaking up or
> standing aside, but if you're going to speak up, then make sure you
> can follow through.

It seems to me like you say here that any policy that Gentoo has that
you just don't like can be ignored because, well, you just don't like
it.
We can discuss whether or not the policy is ok, but should we ignore the
policy for that reason?  I think not.


--
Fabian Groffen
Gentoo on a different level

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Re: Lastrite: media-gfx/pngcrush

Bugzilla from scarabeus@gentoo.org
Guys,
the policy makes perfect sense, there are people that sync just
monthly, so they might want to get some headsup why their packages are
going away, and not just remove them.

Thats why the recommended value is 60 days, 30 for urgent cases,
lately we just moved to 30 for everything, but please stick with that,
do not make it lower.

This is not about waiting for maintainer, or slowing up distro, but
letting our users to catch up with what we do.

As a side note masked packages CAN be broken, so the stab can proceed
from the point you mask all the broken ones.

Tom

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Re: Lastrite: media-gfx/pngcrush

Samuli Suominen-4
In reply to this post by Fabian Groffen-2
On 10/08/2011 06:13 PM, Fabian Groffen wrote:

> On 08-10-2011 11:05:08 -0400, Rich Freeman wrote:
>> If the extra 16 days will actually accomplish something beyond just
>> delaying libpng then we can debate the finer points of policy.
>> However, if we're just arguing policy for its own sake then I don't
>> see the value.  Perhaps a package maintainer might have the "right" to
>> a few weeks to fix things, but in the end you have to put the distro
>> and its users first.  You can do that either by speaking up or
>> standing aside, but if you're going to speak up, then make sure you
>> can follow through.
>
> It seems to me like you say here that any policy that Gentoo has that
> you just don't like can be ignored because, well, you just don't like
> it.
> We can discuss whether or not the policy is ok, but should we ignore the
> policy for that reason?  I think not.
>
>

It's not like fastened lastriting hasn't happened before. I question
your motives in picking this particular one. It's not like I expected
cookies for the time I've put into this porting effort, but not this
"attack" either.

whatever

- Samuli

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Re: Lastrite: media-gfx/pngcrush

Fabian Groffen-2
On 08-10-2011 18:33:15 +0300, Samuli Suominen wrote:
> It's not like fastened lastriting hasn't happened before. I question
> your motives in picking this particular one. It's not like I expected
> cookies for the time I've put into this porting effort, but not this
> "attack" either.

If you feel I'm attacking you, then I apologise.  My personal feeling is
that my response was very mild and not directed to you.  I haven't
responded to your earlier "fastened lastriting" messages on purpose.
Now that Matt brought it up for this package, I just liked to point out
that we have a policy, that was made for some reason, and that you
violated it.

I realise that it may look like I'm picking just on you.  I'm not.  This
is the risk you run as one of the top committers of Gentoo.  I think you
do a lot of good work, and I hope you'll keep on doing so for a long
time.

You just tend to change rules as you see fit every once in a while,
which is a bad thing for Gentoo.  I don't like all policies either, but
I stick to them (for as far as I'm aware of them), because if we all
would start to ignore what we don't like, then what would be the point
in having those policies at first?

Again, this doesn't mean that each policy in its current form is
de-facto the best thing or something like that.


--
Fabian Groffen
Gentoo on a different level

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Re: Lastrite: media-gfx/pngcrush

Matt Turner-5
In reply to this post by Markos Chandras-2
On Sat, Oct 8, 2011 at 10:20 AM, Markos Chandras <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 10/08/2011 02:19 PM, Matt Turner wrote:
>> On Sat, Oct 8, 2011 at 4:47 AM, Samuli Suominen
>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> # Samuli Suominen <[hidden email]> (08 Oct 2011) # Fails to
>>> compile against system libpng15, bug 356127 # Removal in 14 days
>>
>> 14 days?
>>
>>> media-gfx/pngcrush
>>
> We can't really wait forever for slacking maintainers to fix their
> packages. amd64 is almost ready to have libpng-1.5 stable in the very
> near future

Two things:

1) I'm *really* tired of the usage of the word "slacking" on this
mailing list. If you or someone else wants to pay me to work on
Gentoo, *then* you can tell me that I'm slacking. Otherwise, I'm a
volunteer working on things that interest me in my free time. I truly
do have more important things to do than to figure out how to port
pngcrush to libpng1.5. Namely, graduate school and midterm exams.

2) What exactly is it that you want me to do here? Upstream is aware
of the problem, and seems to be working on it as there are comments
about libpng15 in pngcrush.c. Hanno kindly stepped in and made
pngcrush use a bundled libpng14 (and at the same time bundled zlib,
which has now been fixed), which you promptly masked. I'm not sure if
the problem is bundled libs in general or specifically zlib, but we
*know* it's distasteful. It's not like that's a preferred or permanent
solution. Do you find that somehow more distasteful than removing a
piece of software from from portage that's been in the tree since
2002?

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Re: Lastrite: media-gfx/pngcrush

Markos Chandras-2
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

On 10/08/11 22:45, Matt Turner wrote:

> On Sat, Oct 8, 2011 at 10:20 AM, Markos Chandras
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On 10/08/2011 02:19 PM, Matt Turner wrote:
>>> On Sat, Oct 8, 2011 at 4:47 AM, Samuli Suominen
>>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> # Samuli Suominen <[hidden email]> (08 Oct 2011) #
>>>> Fails to compile against system libpng15, bug 356127 #
>>>> Removal in 14 days
>>>
>>> 14 days?
>>>
>>>> media-gfx/pngcrush
>>>
>> We can't really wait forever for slacking maintainers to fix
>> their packages. amd64 is almost ready to have libpng-1.5 stable
>> in the very near future
>
> Two things:
>
> 1) I'm *really* tired of the usage of the word "slacking" on this
> mailing list. If you or someone else wants to pay me to work on
> Gentoo, *then* you can tell me that I'm slacking. Otherwise, I'm a
> volunteer working on things that interest me in my free time. I
> truly do have more important things to do than to figure out how to
> port pngcrush to libpng1.5. Namely, graduate school and midterm
> exams.

The bug is open since February (9 months). If you can't handle a bug
in 9 months then maybe you should consider stepping down as a
maintainer. Handling does not necessarily mean fixing. Masking could
be an acceptable solution as well. The fact that nobody pays us does
not mean that we can use that as an excuse for lower the QA barrier of
portage tree. If only I got a $1 everytime I hear this "excuse"...

>
> 2) What exactly is it that you want me to do here? Upstream is
> aware of the problem, and seems to be working on it as there are
> comments about libpng15 in pngcrush.c. Hanno kindly stepped in and
> made pngcrush use a bundled libpng14 (and at the same time bundled
> zlib, which has now been fixed), which you promptly masked. I'm not
> sure if the problem is bundled libs in general or specifically
> zlib, but we *know* it's distasteful. It's not like that's a
> preferred or permanent solution. Do you find that somehow more
> distasteful than removing a piece of software from from portage
> that's been in the tree since 2002?
>

First of all, pay some attention and ready the masking message. It
says "Waiting for upstream to fix it". It says nothing about removal.
Hanno did two commits
1) use bundled zlib and libpng14. Doh this is not a fix. It is barely
a workaround. What if a vulnerability is discovered in the bundled
version of libpng in the next months? Will upstream fix it? Highly
unlikely since they don't seem able to keep up with libpng releases.

2) Next commit, unbundle zlib, use bundled libpng. Say problem as before.

So until you or upstream or someone else comes up with a proper fix
this will remain masked. If you still disagree feel free to talk to QA.

Finally, yes I know that we have plenty of bundled libs around but
this is not an excuse. Sometimes we cannot avoid that but in this case
it makes perfect sense to mask it and proceed with libpng15
stabilization or whatever. Moreover pngcrush has no rdeps so no other
packages affect by this change. We have the same problem with optipng
but we can't mask it because there are reverse dependencies that will
be affected.

- --
Regards,
Markos Chandras / Gentoo Linux Developer / Key ID: B4AFF2C2
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Re: Lastrite: media-gfx/pngcrush

Matt Turner-5
On Sat, Oct 8, 2011 at 9:41 PM, Markos Chandras <[hidden email]> wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA512
>
> On 10/08/11 22:45, Matt Turner wrote:
>> On Sat, Oct 8, 2011 at 10:20 AM, Markos Chandras
>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> On 10/08/2011 02:19 PM, Matt Turner wrote:
>>>> On Sat, Oct 8, 2011 at 4:47 AM, Samuli Suominen
>>>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>> # Samuli Suominen <[hidden email]> (08 Oct 2011) #
>>>>> Fails to compile against system libpng15, bug 356127 #
>>>>> Removal in 14 days
>>>>
>>>> 14 days?
>>>>
>>>>> media-gfx/pngcrush
>>>>
>>> We can't really wait forever for slacking maintainers to fix
>>> their packages. amd64 is almost ready to have libpng-1.5 stable
>>> in the very near future
>>
>> Two things:
>>
>> 1) I'm *really* tired of the usage of the word "slacking" on this
>> mailing list. If you or someone else wants to pay me to work on
>> Gentoo, *then* you can tell me that I'm slacking. Otherwise, I'm a
>> volunteer working on things that interest me in my free time. I
>> truly do have more important things to do than to figure out how to
>> port pngcrush to libpng1.5. Namely, graduate school and midterm
>> exams.
>
> The bug is open since February (9 months). If you can't handle a bug
> in 9 months then maybe you should consider stepping down as a
> maintainer. Handling does not necessarily mean fixing. Masking could
> be an acceptable solution as well. The fact that nobody pays us does
> not mean that we can use that as an excuse for lower the QA barrier of
> portage tree. If only I got a $1 everytime I hear this "excuse"...

Maybe you could check the fucking changelog and see that I added
myself as a maintainer in August?

Don't ever ask me for anything again.

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Re: Lastrite: media-gfx/pngcrush

Rich Freeman
In reply to this post by Markos Chandras-2
On Sat, Oct 8, 2011 at 9:41 PM, Markos Chandras <[hidden email]> wrote:
> 1) use bundled zlib and libpng14. Doh this is not a fix. It is barely
> a workaround. What if a vulnerability is discovered in the bundled
> version of libpng in the next months? Will upstream fix it? Highly
> unlikely since they don't seem able to keep up with libpng releases.

I'm no sure why a bundled library needs to be cause for masking.  If
there is a vulnerability, of course we should mask away if we can't
fix it within the GLSA guidelines.

I think that the general principle of not bundling libraries is a good
one.  However, that shouldn't be the sole reason for excluding a
package from the tree, and right now I can't see any other reason to
exclude this package since bundling the library fixes the block.  I
haven't seen any evidence presented that upstream is lax with security
- not using the latest version of a library simply is a case of "if it
ain't broke, don't fix it."

Rich

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Re: Lastrite: media-gfx/pngcrush

Duncan-42
In reply to this post by Bugzilla from scarabeus@gentoo.org
Tomáš Chvátal posted on Sat, 08 Oct 2011 17:29:52 +0200 as excerpted:

> Guys,
> the policy makes perfect sense, there are people that sync just monthly,
> so they might want to get some headsup why their packages are going
> away, and not just remove them.
>
> Thats why the recommended value is 60 days, 30 for urgent cases, lately
> we just moved to 30 for everything, but please stick with that,
> do not make it lower.
>
> This is not about waiting for maintainer, or slowing up distro, but
> letting our users to catch up with what we do.
>
> As a side note masked packages CAN be broken, so the stab can proceed
> from the point you mask all the broken ones.

++

Mask it now, do the libpng thing in 14 days (or even sooner if all to-be-
broken packages are masked), but leave the masked packages for the full
30 days as the policy states.

Libpng isn't held up that way, while the package still gets its 30 day
masking last-rites.  No policy broken; no maintainer toes stepped on as a
result of the broken policy.  No more nasty threads about (this) broken
policy and unhappy maintainers as a result! =:^)

--
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman


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Re: Lastrite: media-gfx/pngcrush

Markos Chandras-2
In reply to this post by Matt Turner-5
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On 10/09/11 02:47, Matt Turner wrote:

> On Sat, Oct 8, 2011 at 9:41 PM, Markos Chandras
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
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>>
>> On 10/08/11 22:45, Matt Turner wrote:
>>> On Sat, Oct 8, 2011 at 10:20 AM, Markos Chandras
>>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> On 10/08/2011 02:19 PM, Matt Turner wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, Oct 8, 2011 at 4:47 AM, Samuli Suominen
>>>>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>> # Samuli Suominen <[hidden email]> (08 Oct 2011) #
>>>>>> Fails to compile against system libpng15, bug 356127 #
>>>>>> Removal in 14 days
>>>>>
>>>>> 14 days?
>>>>>
>>>>>> media-gfx/pngcrush
>>>>>
>>>> We can't really wait forever for slacking maintainers to fix
>>>> their packages. amd64 is almost ready to have libpng-1.5
>>>> stable in the very near future
>>>
>>> Two things:
>>>
>>> 1) I'm *really* tired of the usage of the word "slacking" on
>>> this mailing list. If you or someone else wants to pay me to
>>> work on Gentoo, *then* you can tell me that I'm slacking.
>>> Otherwise, I'm a volunteer working on things that interest me
>>> in my free time. I truly do have more important things to do
>>> than to figure out how to port pngcrush to libpng1.5. Namely,
>>> graduate school and midterm exams.
>>
>> The bug is open since February (9 months). If you can't handle a
>> bug in 9 months then maybe you should consider stepping down as
>> a maintainer. Handling does not necessarily mean fixing. Masking
>> could be an acceptable solution as well. The fact that nobody
>> pays us does not mean that we can use that as an excuse for lower
>> the QA barrier of portage tree. If only I got a $1 everytime I
>> hear this "excuse"...
>
> Maybe you could check the fucking changelog and see that I added
> myself as a maintainer in August?
>
> Don't ever ask me for anything again.
>
Watch your language. This is not your $home playroom

- --
Regards,
Markos Chandras / Gentoo Linux Developer / Key ID: B4AFF2C2
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Re: Lastrite: media-gfx/pngcrush

Matt Turner-5
On Sun, Oct 9, 2011 at 5:18 AM, Markos Chandras <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Watch your language. This is not your $home playroom

And it's not your mailing list.

I'm sure I'm not the only one that's tired of your Let Me Insert
Myself Into Everything syndrome just because you're on QA. QA's a joke
that's only used as a stick to bludgeon other developers with.

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Re: Lastrite: media-gfx/pngcrush

Markos Chandras-2
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On 10/09/11 16:15, Matt Turner wrote:

> On Sun, Oct 9, 2011 at 5:18 AM, Markos Chandras
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Watch your language. This is not your $home playroom
>
> And it's not your mailing list.
>
> I'm sure I'm not the only one that's tired of your Let Me Insert
> Myself Into Everything syndrome just because you're on QA. QA's a
> joke that's only used as a stick to bludgeon other developers
> with.
>
I am not in QA fwiw just trying to keep a basic QA level in portage tree.

- --
Regards,
Markos Chandras / Gentoo Linux Developer / Key ID: B4AFF2C2
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