List of User projects

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List of User projects

Alistair Bush-2
I was just thinking how nice it could be if we acknowledged some of the
projects that contribute to gentoo but are actually developed primarily
outside of gentoo's dev community.  How about a page on gentoo.org

So lets me start with a couple of obvious ones.

kportagetray
pkgcore
paludis


There must be more than these or else gentoo really is dead.

- Alistair

ps.  I would like the packages to be specifically for gentoo,  but there are
exceptions to this.  as an example openrc (and even paludis to a degree).  If
you think that there is a package not specifically targetting gentoo that
deserves a mention please make it clear why.

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Re: [gentoo-dev-announce] List of User projects

Luis Francisco Araujo
Alistair Bush wrote:

> I was just thinking how nice it could be if we acknowledged some of the
> projects that contribute to gentoo but are actually developed primarily
> outside of gentoo's dev community.  How about a page on gentoo.org
>
> So lets me start with a couple of obvious ones.
>
> kportagetray
> pkgcore
> paludis
>
>
> There must be more than these or else gentoo really is dead.
>
> - Alistair
>
> ps.  I would like the packages to be specifically for gentoo,  but there are
> exceptions to this.  as an example openrc (and even paludis to a degree).  If
> you think that there is a package not specifically targetting gentoo that
> deserves a mention please make it clear why.
>

The set of graphical front-ends for portage:

portato
porthole
himerge

And yes, it'd be nice to have a page listing these kind of projects.


--

Luis F. Araujo "araujo at gentoo.org"
Gentoo Linux


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Re: List of User projects

Duncan-42
In reply to this post by Alistair Bush-2
Alistair Bush posted on Sun, 28 Mar 2010 17:13:14 +1300 as excerpted:

> I was just thinking how nice it could be if we acknowledged some of the
> projects that contribute to gentoo but are actually developed primarily
> outside of gentoo's dev community.  How about a page on gentoo.org
>
> So lets me start with a couple of obvious ones.
>
> kportagetray
> pkgcore
> paludis
>
>
> There must be more than these or else gentoo really is dead.
>
> - Alistair
>
> ps.  I would like the packages to be specifically for gentoo,  but there
> are exceptions to this.  as an example openrc (and even paludis to a
> degree).  If you think that there is a package not specifically
> targetting gentoo that deserves a mention please make it clear why.

[Hmm... Was followup not set?  It tried to post to the announce list too!  
That's a no-no for replies!  Luckily gmane has it set read-only so my news
client gave me a warning.]

So you mention openrc, but don't have it on the list?

FWIW, I've not looked, but I think a number of the portage helpers are
non-gentoo-dev developed, and certainly a number previously were, that
have ultimately been folded back into portage and/or gentoolkit in someway
or another now.  I'm sure someone from one of those projects can list
several of them without even looking.

--
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman


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Re: Re: List of User projects

Alistair Bush-2
>
> So you mention openrc, but don't have it on the list?
>

Yes because openrc isn't really gentoo-specific.   I don't want the list
blowing out to include ever package in the entire tree.   ie. Thanking gcc for
contributing to gentoo.

Note this doesn't mean that openrc won't be on the list.  I think that in this
case the dev has worked closely enough with gentoo to deserve acknowledgment.
(being a former dev might have helped that :) )

Maybe it will be in a "Non-Gentoo specific" section of the list,  or something.  
My point at the moment is to distinguish it from something like
pkgcore/paludis which were developed with gentoo firmly as the target platform.

> FWIW, I've not looked, but I think a number of the portage helpers are
> non-gentoo-dev developed, and certainly a number previously were, that
> have ultimately been folded back into portage and/or gentoolkit in someway
> or another now.  I'm sure someone from one of those projects can list
> several of them without even looking.

Well i'm more interested in what is being developed verses what were
developed.  But that is an interesting possibility,  not surprising but
interesting none the less.

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Re: List of User projects

René Neumann
In reply to this post by Luis Francisco Araujo
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Am 28.03.2010 10:30, schrieb Luis Francisco Araujo:
> himerge

Hey :P - you are a gentoo dev :P

I think probably most of the app-portage category falls in here (as
portage is the only "gentoo-specific" thing one can develop stuff for):

eix, etc-proposals, gpytage, ...
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Re: List of User projects

Duncan-42
In reply to this post by Alistair Bush-2
Alistair Bush posted on Sun, 28 Mar 2010 23:21:23 +1300 as excerpted:


>> So you mention openrc, but don't have it on the list?
>>
>>
> Yes because openrc isn't really gentoo-specific.   I don't want the list
> blowing out to include ever package in the entire tree.   ie. Thanking
> gcc for contributing to gentoo.
>
> Note this doesn't mean that openrc won't be on the list.  I think that
> in this case the dev has worked closely enough with gentoo to deserve
> acknowledgment. (being a former dev might have helped that :) )
>
> Maybe it will be in a "Non-Gentoo specific" section of the list,  or
> something. My point at the moment is to distinguish it from something
> like pkgcore/paludis which were developed with gentoo firmly as the
> target platform.

I don't disagree with your idea, and I'm not /really/ the partisan openrc
booster this might cause me to appear to be, it's just that it and the
portage helpers are more than likely pretty much it, and I /am/ trying to
understand the distinction being made:

What other distributions (*BSD, Linux, or...) do you know that use
openrc?  IOW, I know it was designed to be distribution independent, but I
don't know of anyone else using it (well, other than Gentoo derivatives),
and Gentoo certainly influenced it.

Meanwhile, portage, and thus the various app-portage/* tools, as
mentioned, should be usable on many of those same Gentoo derivatives.

And paludis and friends, while being designed for more independent use
(much like openrc), again, is it (are they) actually part of any non-
Gentoo-based distribution?

The point being, perhaps I'm wrong and openrc does have a broader
distribution basis than I'm aware of, but in practice, it seems all of
these tend to be used /almost/ exclusively with Gentoo and Gentoo based
distributions.  If openrc's usage is rather wider than I'm aware of, well
then, I'm about to learn that. =:^)

--
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman


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Re: Re: List of User projects

Rich Freeman
On 03/28/2010 10:27 AM, Duncan wrote:
> The point being, perhaps I'm wrong and openrc does have a broader
> distribution basis than I'm aware of, but in practice, it seems all of
> these tend to be used /almost/ exclusively with Gentoo and Gentoo based
> distributions.  If openrc's usage is rather wider than I'm aware of, well
> then, I'm about to learn that. =:^)
>

Well, I'm sure there is an openrc list somewhere that might be a better
forum for these kinds of discussions, but I suspect that they need to
walk before they run.  Right now openrc isn't even the stable init
system for Gentoo.

I know that their goal was to be completely distro-neutral, and once it
stabilizes we might see it happen.  It certainly would be very useful -
it would standardize a ton of stuff across distros.

Rich

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Re: Re: List of User projects

Wulf C. Krueger
In reply to this post by Duncan-42
> And paludis and friends, while being designed for more independent use
> (much like openrc), again, is it (are they) actually part of any non-
> Gentoo-based distribution?

Yes. Paludis is Exherbo's package manager.

Best regards, Wulf

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Re: List of User projects

Duncan-42
Wulf C. Krueger posted on Sun, 28 Mar 2010 16:55:12 +0200 as excerpted:

>> And paludis and friends, while being designed for more independent use
>> (much like openrc), again, is it (are they) actually part of any non-
>> Gentoo-based distribution?
>
> Yes. Paludis is Exherbo's package manager.

FWIW, I categorized that as "Gentoo based"... tho how much it has expanded
beyond that by now isn't something I'd know without being told...

--
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman


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Re: Re: List of User projects

Wulf C. Krueger
> > Yes. Paludis is Exherbo's package manager.
> FWIW, I categorized that as "Gentoo based"... tho how much it has expanded
> beyond that by now isn't something I'd know without being told...

It has never been Gentoo-based, Duncan. You might perceive it like that
because Gentoo has often embraced our concepts for recent EAPIs, though.

Best regards, Wulf

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Re: List of User projects

Brian Harring-2
In reply to this post by Alistair Bush-2
Skip to the end for a counterproposal...

On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 05:13:14PM +1300, Alistair Bush wrote:

> I was just thinking how nice it could be if we acknowledged some of the
> projects that contribute to gentoo but are actually developed primarily
> outside of gentoo's dev community.  How about a page on gentoo.org
>
> So lets me start with a couple of obvious ones.
>
> kportagetray
> pkgcore
> paludis
>
>
> There must be more than these or else gentoo really is dead.
diffball (the basis of y'alls delta compression for tarball
snapshots, progenitor of tarsync used by emerge-*webrsync, etc).

> ps.  I would like the packages to be specifically for gentoo,  but there are
> exceptions to this.  as an example openrc (and even paludis to a degree).  If
> you think that there is a package not specifically targetting gentoo that
> deserves a mention please make it clear why.

I'm a bit torn by this proposal; on the one hand, a shout out is nice-
from a career angle it certainly would've been useful for getting
some attention/exposure when I first was starting out.

That said, it has some issues with it:

* it'll wind up being a fairly subjective list leading to some
debates nobody really wants to be involved in (nice euphemism for
flamewars).
*) the criteria seems to be external projects that are gentoo
specific, aparently by non-devs/ex-devs.  This raises some questions
as to what happens for when it's created by a dev externally (pkgcore
went external a long while before I became an exdev), and what
happens when the author becomes a dev (I'll be getting my gentoo-x86
+w back soon enough).
*) PMS was started outside of gentoo, and maintained outside gentoo
for a long while.  Now it's a gentoo project.  A shout out there
would've been warranted (spec work isn't exactly sexy, regardless of
any extra baggage that came w/ PMS), but at what point does it
suddenly fall off this list?
*) kind of the packagekit connundrum- at least for pkgcore/paludis,
they were written to support multiple distros/formats internally.  Yes
they've got traction w/in gentoo, but at what point is it no longer a
gentoo specific thing, and more of a "it gained it's first traction in
gentoo" ?  Openrc I'd argue is in the same boat- yes it can be used
elsewhere, but right now we're the owns extracting the most benefit
from it.
*) it slights the tools that started w/in gentoo's vcs; consider
scanelf .  Very useful tool deserving some credit, but it would be
exempted under these rules.


Instead, if the purpose is a "thanks", why not every once in a while
put up a news item discussing the tools in question?  Such an
approach allows folk to focus in on whatever is useful/interesting
(regardless of origination) and give the same 'thanks' angle and
public exposure for the author in question.

Note also it'd likely be interesting to read.

~harring

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Re: List of User projects

René Neumann
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Am 28.03.2010 21:04, schrieb Brian Harring:
> Instead, if the purpose is a "thanks", why not every once in a while
> put up a news item discussing the tools in question?  Such an
> approach allows folk to focus in on whatever is useful/interesting
> (regardless of origination) and give the same 'thanks' angle and
> public exposure for the author in question.

Like the "Gentoo Weekly/Monthly Newsletter" (R.I.P.)?

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Re: List of User projects

Brian Harring-2
On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 10:07:52PM +0200, Rennn 'Necoro' Neumann wrote:
> Am 28.03.2010 21:04, schrieb Brian Harring:
> > Instead, if the purpose is a "thanks", why not every once in a while
> > put up a news item discussing the tools in question?  Such an
> > approach allows folk to focus in on whatever is useful/interesting
> > (regardless of origination) and give the same 'thanks' angle and
> > public exposure for the author in question.
>
> Like the "Gentoo Weekly/Monthly Newsletter" (R.I.P.)?

Pretty much the notion, although I'd avoid the monthly angle- that
seems to be the downfall of GWN and kin.
~harring

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Re: List of User projects

Joshua Saddler
On Sun, 28 Mar 2010 13:09:07 -0700
Brian Harring <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 10:07:52PM +0200, Rennn 'Necoro' Neumann wrote:
> > Am 28.03.2010 21:04, schrieb Brian Harring:
> > > Instead, if the purpose is a "thanks", why not every once in a while
> > > put up a news item discussing the tools in question?  Such an
> > > approach allows folk to focus in on whatever is useful/interesting
> > > (regardless of origination) and give the same 'thanks' angle and
> > > public exposure for the author in question.
> >
> > Like the "Gentoo Weekly/Monthly Newsletter" (R.I.P.)?
>
> Pretty much the notion, although I'd avoid the monthly angle- that
> seems to be the downfall of GWN and kin.
> ~harring
I still try to put up articles of interest whenever someone sends 'em to PR's way, or when I find out there's some interesting use of Gentoo out there. The Misa guitar comes to mind. But covering each and every little bit of software written for Gentoo is too much work for one guy, or even a folks. 'Specially since they so often go defunct after a very short time -- I'm thinking of all the Portage frontends in particular.

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Re: List of User projects

Alistair Bush-2
In reply to this post by Brian Harring-2
>
> diffball (the basis of y'alls delta compression for tarball
> snapshots, progenitor of tarsync used by emerge-*webrsync, etc).
>

Thank you Brian for that pkg, its appreciated.  My apologies if the rest is a
little less kind.

> > ps.  I would like the packages to be specifically for gentoo,  but there
> > are exceptions to this.  as an example openrc (and even paludis to a
> > degree).  If you think that there is a package not specifically
> > targetting gentoo that deserves a mention please make it clear why.
>
> I'm a bit torn by this proposal; on the one hand, a shout out is nice-
> from a career angle it certainly would've been useful for getting
> some attention/exposure when I first was starting out.
>

Not really my aim.  Im not planning on listing ppl,  just there work.  Might
not even put a url pointing to it.

> That said, it has some issues with it:
>
> * it'll wind up being a fairly subjective list leading to some
> debates nobody really wants to be involved in (nice euphemism for
> flamewars).

Well I suppose it would be my project,  therefore I would make the call.  ppl
can flame all they like really.  Personally I don't find them a very good way to
communicate,  would probably miss what they were flaming about anyway.

> *) the criteria seems to be external projects that are gentoo
> specific, aparently by non-devs/ex-devs.  This raises some questions
> as to what happens for when it's created by a dev externally (pkgcore
> went external a long while before I became an exdev), and what
> happens when the author becomes a dev (I'll be getting my gentoo-x86
> +w back soon enough).

Firstly that is very good news.

Currently I am taking this from Mon, 29 March 19:42 NZ DST.   So pkgcore is
external,  and you are a community member so your in the list.   I don't want
to bring a whole pile of history into it.   Will pkgcore have its own gentoo
project,  or be considered as part of a gentoo project?  Im guessing not
anyway.

I'm quite happy to consider the corner cases,  and will probably include a
vast majority of them.  Initially I don't even believe I will have a fully
complete list of all the projects the fit nicely into my criteria.  Thats why
you have one of those nice statements that says.

"While we have attempted to list all package/projects etc we are sure we have
missed some,  please contact ......  if you believe we have missed something
blah de blah blah"

> *) PMS was started outside of gentoo, and maintained outside gentoo
> for a long while.  Now it's a gentoo project.  A shout out there
> would've been warranted (spec work isn't exactly sexy, regardless of
> any extra baggage that came w/ PMS), but at what point does it
> suddenly fall off this list?

Isn't this a bit too bikesheddy.  If someone, from now, were to create a
project and then have it added to the list before they become a dev then good
on them.  The project would not be removed.  Even if it died.  In fact the
list would never be cleaned.  It may be updated to represent the state of the
project,  but that project would be there for as long as the page was. (and
probably longer the way ppl index the interwebs).

> *) kind of the packagekit connundrum- at least for pkgcore/paludis,
> they were written to support multiple distros/formats internally.  Yes
> they've got traction w/in gentoo, but at what point is it no longer a
> gentoo specific thing, and more of a "it gained it's first traction in
> gentoo" ?  Openrc I'd argue is in the same boat- yes it can be used
> elsewhere, but right now we're the owns extracting the most benefit
> from it.

Well I would suggest that a major part of the functionality of both those
pkg's are directed towards supporting gentoo.   Even if both supported 5-10
completely different distro's that did not resemble gentoo in the slightest I
would still put them on the list.  Compare this with kmyfirewall that had a
single dialog that allowed to be set "gentoo specfic" executable paths which
would not be on the list.

> *) it slights the tools that started w/in gentoo's vcs; consider
> scanelf .  Very useful tool deserving some credit, but it would be
> exempted under these rules.

Life ain't always perfect.   And that goes both ways.   This isn't a list to
thank developers for their effort,  make another thread if you want that.

It also doesn't slight that project in the slightest.

>
> Instead, if the purpose is a "thanks", why not every once in a while
> put up a news item discussing the tools in question?  Such an
> approach allows folk to focus in on whatever is useful/interesting
> (regardless of origination) and give the same 'thanks' angle and
> public exposure for the author in question.

Well I was considering this as well.   But first before we do this we would
need to actually know what packages there are.  Therefore this thread.  Unless
we do all packages from aaaaa to zzzzz.


- Alistair

ps. I must say that its a little sad that so far there has been much more
effort put into nitpicking than actually populating the list (working towards
the goal).  Which sums up gentoo pretty much.  So lets highlight this part a
little more

> > If you think that there is a package not specifically
> > targetting gentoo that deserves a mention please make it clear why.

And lets add on "If you think a package should be mentioned for other reasons
please make it clear why, as well"

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Re: List of User projects

Robin H. Johnson-2
On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 08:31:32PM +1300, Alistair Bush wrote:
> I'm quite happy to consider the corner cases,  and will probably include a
> vast majority of them.  Initially I don't even believe I will have a fully
> complete list of all the projects the fit nicely into my criteria.  Thats why
> you have one of those nice statements that says.
catalyst, genkernel, hwdata, livecd-tools were originally in-house, just
like the parts of baselayout that became openrc, but have moved outside.

I maintain some interesting/useful scripts:
http://dev.gentoo.org/~robbat2/scripts/
- earch
- perl-bump


complex conf.d/net configurations:
http://dev.gentoo.org/~robbat2/conf.d-net/

I wrote genflags:
http://dev.gentoo.org/~robbat2/genflags/
It's now mostly dead, good only for historical research.

"Managed Portage", taking stacked profiles to their extreme:
http://dev.gentoo.org/~robbat2/managed-portage-0.01.tar.bz2

Unfortunately my patchsets and documentation for using Gentoo on SGI
Visual Workstation 320 (visws320) and the XXS1500 MIPS system are very
out of date.

--
Robin Hugh Johnson
Gentoo Linux: Developer, Trustee & Infrastructure Lead
E-Mail     : [hidden email]
GnuPG FP   : 11AC BA4F 4778 E3F6 E4ED  F38E B27B 944E 3488 4E85

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Re: List of User projects

Brian Harring-2
In reply to this post by Alistair Bush-2
On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 08:31:32PM +1300, Alistair Bush wrote:

> > > ps.  I would like the packages to be specifically for gentoo,  but there
> > > are exceptions to this.  as an example openrc (and even paludis to a
> > > degree).  If you think that there is a package not specifically
> > > targetting gentoo that deserves a mention please make it clear why.
> >
> > I'm a bit torn by this proposal; on the one hand, a shout out is nice-
> > from a career angle it certainly would've been useful for getting
> > some attention/exposure when I first was starting out.
> >
>
> Not really my aim.  Im not planning on listing ppl,  just there work.  Might
> not even put a url pointing to it.
Ok, that clarifies things a bit- I initially misinterpreted your
proposal as more then an external contributors list.


> Currently I am taking this from Mon, 29 March 19:42 NZ DST.   So pkgcore is
> external,  and you are a community member so your in the list.   I don't want
> to bring a whole pile of history into it.   Will pkgcore have its own gentoo
> project,  or be considered as part of a gentoo project?  Im guessing not
> anyway.

Honestly hadn't thought about pkgcore's status in reference to my
regaining +w, so I'd assume it'll remain status quo- externally
hosted.


> ps. I must say that its a little sad that so far there has been much more
> effort put into nitpicking than actually populating the list (working towards
> the goal).  Which sums up gentoo pretty much.  So lets highlight this part a
> little more

Note I'm generally overly specific, intent isn't to rip your proposal
to tiny little shreds - I actually like the idea, it just didn't seem
clear if the idea was to focus was on interesting packages and what
they do (regardless of dev/non-dev origin) or if your intent was to
focus on non-dev contributions.

I'm *personally* more interested in the former (I like reading about
cool projects, regardless of who created it), but your intent seems
more the latter, which is fair enough since you'll be the one doing
the work.

additions to your list:
* porthole (Brian Dolbec)
* cfg-update (nfc who wrote it, but it was at least at one point a
reasonably common alternative to etc-update)
* deltup: John J. Whitney, the infra. is maintained on
gentooexperimental by blackace.  Notable mainly since it's the only
working delta compression setup for distfiles.. still active last I
knew, also.

Those   are just a couple of the portage ones I can think of at this
hour- will update w/ more as I get time

cheers-
~harring

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Re: List of User projects

Luis Francisco Araujo
In reply to this post by René Neumann
René 'Necoro' Neumann wrote:
> Am 28.03.2010 10:30, schrieb Luis Francisco Araujo:
>> himerge
>
> Hey :P - you are a gentoo dev :P
>
> I think probably most of the app-portage category falls in here (as
> portage is the only "gentoo-specific" thing one can develop stuff for):
>
> eix, etc-proposals, gpytage, ...

But himerge is not an official Gentoo project. So I guess
it falls into the category of "user developed projects" :P

--

Luis F. Araujo "araujo at gentoo.org"
Gentoo Linux


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Re: List of User projects

Ben de Groot-2
In reply to this post by Alistair Bush-2
On 29 March 2010 09:31, Alistair Bush <[hidden email]> wrote:
> ps. I must say that its a little sad that so far there has been much more
> effort put into nitpicking than actually populating the list (working towards
> the goal).

The problem is that it isn't very clear what exactly the goal is, and what
the criteria for inclusion are. Once you clarify the goal and the criteria
and ask for which packages should be included on that basis, I think
you'll get the answers you're looking for.

Cheers,
--
Ben de Groot
Gentoo Linux Qt project lead developer

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Re: List of User projects

René Neumann
In reply to this post by Joshua Saddler
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Am 29.03.2010 01:47, schrieb Joshua Saddler:
> 'Specially since they so often go defunct after a very short time -- I'm thinking of all the Portage frontends in particular.

Don't know what you are talking about :) ... Portato is now in its
fourth year -- porthole is even older.

Though I admit, that there is some kind of "functionality-oscillation".
But if you ever tried to program against an undocumented API, with
functionality that often changes in subtle ways, you'll know why ^^.

- - René
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