OT: looking for email provider

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OT: looking for email provider

Jack
Relying on the collective experience and advice of the group here.

As may be obvious to many of you, the address this message is sent from  
"...@users.sourceforge.net" isn't really a fully functional address.  
Email sent to that address will be forwarded by the sourceforge system  
to a personal address I specify.  When I send a message "From: " that  
address, however, I cannot send it through the sourceforge system, as I  
don't actually have an email account with them.  Currently, I send it  
through my gmail account.  That works because I added that address in  
my gmail Settings under "Accounts and Import" /  "Send mail as:".  To  
set it up, gmail sends a message to that address, and I click on a link  
in the message to prove it does come to me.  That's been working find  
for a long time, but, ...

I'm trying to move away from gmail.  Especially for mailing lists like  
this one, if I send a message to the list, I never see that I get the  
message from the list, because gmail refuses to show it in my inbox  
because it's a duplicate of a message already in my sentbox.

I do have an email account with privateemail.com (thorough  
namecheap.com) but they are unable or unwilling to have a similar  
setup.  I'm not even sure they actually understand what I'm asking of  
them, but I've wasted more than enough time trying.

So - I'm asking if anyone can recommend an email service provider that  
understands this and will let me set it up.  I have my own domain, but  
namecheap.com does seem willing to have the appropriate DNS record  
point to a different email provider.  At this point, I'm not interested  
in running my own email server.  I currently only need two mailboxes,  
maybe a small number more in the future, but this is personal, not  
commercial.  I don't need to do bulk emails, maybe up to a dozen or so  
recipients.  I do NOT expect it to be free, but cost is at least some  
consideration.  I don't need huge storage limits, as although I use  
IMAP access when on the road, when I'm home, I use POP3 to download  
everything.  I'd also like at least minimal control over spam  
filtering, mainly to let almost anything through for me to filter  
locally.  If privateemail.com has false positives for everything from  
some sender (such as ups.com, for example) I need to open a ticket with  
them to add a whitelist.  No such thing as clicking on "Not spam" and  
apparently no intent to ever do so.

Thanks for any suggestions.

Jack
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Re: OT: looking for email provider

Dale-46
Jack wrote:

> Relying on the collective experience and advice of the group here.
>
> As may be obvious to many of you, the address this message is sent
> from "...@users.sourceforge.net" isn't really a fully functional
> address.  Email sent to that address will be forwarded by the
> sourceforge system to a personal address I specify.  When I send a
> message "From: " that address, however, I cannot send it through the
> sourceforge system, as I don't actually have an email account with
> them.  Currently, I send it through my gmail account.  That works
> because I added that address in my gmail Settings under "Accounts and
> Import" /  "Send mail as:".  To set it up, gmail sends a message to
> that address, and I click on a link in the message to prove it does
> come to me.  That's been working find for a long time, but, ...
>
> I'm trying to move away from gmail.  Especially for mailing lists like
> this one, if I send a message to the list, I never see that I get the
> message from the list, because gmail refuses to show it in my inbox
> because it's a duplicate of a message already in my sentbox.
>
> I do have an email account with privateemail.com (thorough
> namecheap.com) but they are unable or unwilling to have a similar
> setup.  I'm not even sure they actually understand what I'm asking of
> them, but I've wasted more than enough time trying.
>
> So - I'm asking if anyone can recommend an email service provider that
> understands this and will let me set it up.  I have my own domain, but
> namecheap.com does seem willing to have the appropriate DNS record
> point to a different email provider.  At this point, I'm not
> interested in running my own email server.  I currently only need two
> mailboxes, maybe a small number more in the future, but this is
> personal, not commercial.  I don't need to do bulk emails, maybe up to
> a dozen or so recipients.  I do NOT expect it to be free, but cost is
> at least some consideration.  I don't need huge storage limits, as
> although I use IMAP access when on the road, when I'm home, I use POP3
> to download everything.  I'd also like at least minimal control over
> spam filtering, mainly to let almost anything through for me to filter
> locally.  If privateemail.com has false positives for everything from
> some sender (such as ups.com, for example) I need to open a ticket
> with them to add a whitelist.  No such thing as clicking on "Not spam"
> and apparently no intent to ever do so.
>
> Thanks for any suggestions.
>
> Jack
>


I use gmail as well and the way I get around it not sending my reply
back to me, I BCC myself.  Of course, I have to remember to do that each
time but it works, for me at least.  That may help you in the meantime.

I'd like to move to a secure email provider myself.  I found one but I
can't find the link or remember the name at the moment.  The server is
in a country where privacy comes first.  According to them, Govts just
don't allow searches.  After I hit send, maybe it will come to me.  I do
recall the cost not being to bad.  I just hate switching plus I have PGP
set up for those times when I need it. 

Looking forward to seeing where this thread goes.  ;-)

Dale

:-)  :-) 

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Re: OT: looking for email provider

Dale-46
In reply to this post by Jack
Jack wrote:

> Relying on the collective experience and advice of the group here.
>
> As may be obvious to many of you, the address this message is sent
> from "...@users.sourceforge.net" isn't really a fully functional
> address.  Email sent to that address will be forwarded by the
> sourceforge system to a personal address I specify.  When I send a
> message "From: " that address, however, I cannot send it through the
> sourceforge system, as I don't actually have an email account with
> them.  Currently, I send it through my gmail account.  That works
> because I added that address in my gmail Settings under "Accounts and
> Import" /  "Send mail as:".  To set it up, gmail sends a message to
> that address, and I click on a link in the message to prove it does
> come to me.  That's been working find for a long time, but, ...
>
> I'm trying to move away from gmail.  Especially for mailing lists like
> this one, if I send a message to the list, I never see that I get the
> message from the list, because gmail refuses to show it in my inbox
> because it's a duplicate of a message already in my sentbox.
>
> I do have an email account with privateemail.com (thorough
> namecheap.com) but they are unable or unwilling to have a similar
> setup.  I'm not even sure they actually understand what I'm asking of
> them, but I've wasted more than enough time trying.
>
> So - I'm asking if anyone can recommend an email service provider that
> understands this and will let me set it up.  I have my own domain, but
> namecheap.com does seem willing to have the appropriate DNS record
> point to a different email provider.  At this point, I'm not
> interested in running my own email server.  I currently only need two
> mailboxes, maybe a small number more in the future, but this is
> personal, not commercial.  I don't need to do bulk emails, maybe up to
> a dozen or so recipients.  I do NOT expect it to be free, but cost is
> at least some consideration.  I don't need huge storage limits, as
> although I use IMAP access when on the road, when I'm home, I use POP3
> to download everything.  I'd also like at least minimal control over
> spam filtering, mainly to let almost anything through for me to filter
> locally.  If privateemail.com has false positives for everything from
> some sender (such as ups.com, for example) I need to open a ticket
> with them to add a whitelist.  No such thing as clicking on "Not spam"
> and apparently no intent to ever do so.
>
> Thanks for any suggestions.
>
> Jack
>


I knew I would do this.  I decided to search for it and it hit me,
startmail.com.  https://www.startmail.com  Hopefully that link will
work.  That said, there may be even better out there with costs that
vary.  Generally, the more secure, the higher the cost but not always. 
A couple go to far for me.  I store my emails locally so I use POP or
whatever to fetch them.  Some secure systems do not allow that.  Secures
emails may use some other connection method.

When I did my search, I found this site that talks about the pros and
cons of several providers.  You may find it a interesting read.  It
lists several sites and talks about how they work, what they offer and
what they don't and costs.  It also links to a article about PGP that
you may want to read as well, I'm about to myself. 

https://restoreprivacy.com/private-secure-email/

Hope that helps and by all means, post what you pick and why.  It may
help others and even myself. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

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Re: OT: looking for email provider

Mick-10
In reply to this post by Jack
On Saturday, 1 February 2020 22:08:37 GMT Jack wrote:

> Relying on the collective experience and advice of the group here.
>
> As may be obvious to many of you, the address this message is sent from
> "...@users.sourceforge.net" isn't really a fully functional address.
> Email sent to that address will be forwarded by the sourceforge system
> to a personal address I specify.  When I send a message "From: " that
> address, however, I cannot send it through the sourceforge system, as I
> don't actually have an email account with them.  Currently, I send it
> through my gmail account.  That works because I added that address in
> my gmail Settings under "Accounts and Import" /  "Send mail as:".
This message sending mechanism is using an email address "alias".  It used to
be a simple exercise of setting up as many different aliases you wanted and
then being able to send messages with a From: field, as whoever you wanted to
show up being the sender of the message in your recipients Inbox.  The
forwarded message retains in its headers the original SMTP envelope sender and
recipient addresses, but if you used Bcc: to direct it to a recipient the
message headers could be less revealing of the path used to send the message.
depending on the particular mail server implementation.

It is easy to guess spammers soon cottoned onto the fact they could send their
adverts for products most of us do not need and immediately used this method
to spam the world from "Mr. Viagra" and what have you.

For this reason email ISPs introduced a number of 'email address verification'
hoops you have to jump through, to be allowed to use a different email alias
through their SMTP servers.


> To
> set it up, gmail sends a message to that address, and I click on a link
> in the message to prove it does come to me.  That's been working find
> for a long time, but, ...

This is an alias address verification method.  You have to show you have
control of that domain/email address, rather than being a spammer exploiting
this method.

Despite all this spammers are still getting through.  So, alternative
technologies have been invented (SPF, DKIM, DMARC)[1] to make sure the sender
is legitimate, identifiable and is only allowed to use their own domains.

[1] https://dmarc.org/

> I'm trying to move away from gmail.  Especially for mailing lists like
> this one, if I send a message to the list, I never see that I get the
> message from the list, because gmail refuses to show it in my inbox
> because it's a duplicate of a message already in my sentbox.

I think you can use Filters and Labels[2] in Gmail to tag and then move
whatever you receive/send into a folder you define.

[2] https://support.google.com/mail/answer/118708


> I do have an email account with privateemail.com (thorough
> namecheap.com) but they are unable or unwilling to have a similar
> setup.  I'm not even sure they actually understand what I'm asking of
> them, but I've wasted more than enough time trying.

You could try using the terms "email alias address" and "Send As" with them to
see if this allows your conversation to progress further.

Many ISPs are a marketing shop buying the email service backend from one of
the big email suppliers, e.g. Google, AWS, etc.  Such marketing shops without
commensurate technical capabilities are only a step away from having spammers
associated with their service and therefore keep features down to a minimum to
avoid being blacklisted due to potential misconfigurations.


> So - I'm asking if anyone can recommend an email service provider that
> understands this and will let me set it up.  I have my own domain, but
> namecheap.com does seem willing to have the appropriate DNS record
> point to a different email provider.  At this point, I'm not interested
> in running my own email server.  I currently only need two mailboxes,
> maybe a small number more in the future, but this is personal, not
> commercial.  I don't need to do bulk emails, maybe up to a dozen or so
> recipients.  I do NOT expect it to be free, but cost is at least some
> consideration.  I don't need huge storage limits, as although I use
> IMAP access when on the road, when I'm home, I use POP3 to download
> everything.  I'd also like at least minimal control over spam
> filtering, mainly to let almost anything through for me to filter
> locally.  If privateemail.com has false positives for everything from
> some sender (such as ups.com, for example) I need to open a ticket with
> them to add a whitelist.  No such thing as clicking on "Not spam" and
> apparently no intent to ever do so.
>
> Thanks for any suggestions.
>
> Jack
I can't make any recommendations for email ISPs.  There are a huge number of
them marketing their services, some offering only email services, others
include website hosting and data storage for the same price.

I also use Google for mailing lists et al.  I have been thinking of moving
away from this capitalist surveillance service, whereby the email service is
free, but your data privacy is sold to the highest bidder, while Google keeps
all the margin.  Although the concepts of privacy plus Internet are somewhat
orthogonal.  I'll eventually get around to it, so please post what you come up
with in case it suits me too.
--
Regards,

Mick

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Re: OT: looking for email provider

Mick-10
Just to add the headers fail the DMARC checks, as I noticed in Jack's message:

ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.google.com;
       spf=pass (google.com: domain of gentoo-user+bounces-189351-
michaelkintzios=[hidden email] designates 208.92.234.80 as
permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="gentoo-user+bounces-189351-
michaelkintzios=[hidden email]";
       dmarc=fail (p=QUARANTINE sp=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=sourceforge.net

but still forwarded following Jack's manual verification.

On Sunday, 2 February 2020 11:27:35 GMT Mick wrote:

> On Saturday, 1 February 2020 22:08:37 GMT Jack wrote:
> > Relying on the collective experience and advice of the group here.
> >
> > As may be obvious to many of you, the address this message is sent from
> > "...@users.sourceforge.net" isn't really a fully functional address.
> > Email sent to that address will be forwarded by the sourceforge system
> > to a personal address I specify.  When I send a message "From: " that
> > address, however, I cannot send it through the sourceforge system, as I
> > don't actually have an email account with them.  Currently, I send it
> > through my gmail account.  That works because I added that address in
> > my gmail Settings under "Accounts and Import" /  "Send mail as:".
>
> This message sending mechanism is using an email address "alias".  It used
> to be a simple exercise of setting up as many different aliases you wanted
> and then being able to send messages with a From: field, as whoever you
> wanted to show up being the sender of the message in your recipients Inbox.
>  The forwarded message retains in its headers the original SMTP envelope
> sender and recipient addresses, but if you used Bcc: to direct it to a
> recipient the message headers could be less revealing of the path used to
> send the message. depending on the particular mail server implementation.
>
> It is easy to guess spammers soon cottoned onto the fact they could send
> their adverts for products most of us do not need and immediately used this
> method to spam the world from "Mr. Viagra" and what have you.
>
> For this reason email ISPs introduced a number of 'email address
> verification' hoops you have to jump through, to be allowed to use a
> different email alias through their SMTP servers.
>
> > To
> > set it up, gmail sends a message to that address, and I click on a link
> > in the message to prove it does come to me.  That's been working find
> > for a long time, but, ...
>
> This is an alias address verification method.  You have to show you have
> control of that domain/email address, rather than being a spammer exploiting
> this method.
>
> Despite all this spammers are still getting through.  So, alternative
> technologies have been invented (SPF, DKIM, DMARC)[1] to make sure the
> sender is legitimate, identifiable and is only allowed to use their own
> domains.
>
> [1] https://dmarc.org/
>
> > I'm trying to move away from gmail.  Especially for mailing lists like
> > this one, if I send a message to the list, I never see that I get the
> > message from the list, because gmail refuses to show it in my inbox
> > because it's a duplicate of a message already in my sentbox.
>
> I think you can use Filters and Labels[2] in Gmail to tag and then move
> whatever you receive/send into a folder you define.
>
> [2] https://support.google.com/mail/answer/118708
>
> > I do have an email account with privateemail.com (thorough
> > namecheap.com) but they are unable or unwilling to have a similar
> > setup.  I'm not even sure they actually understand what I'm asking of
> > them, but I've wasted more than enough time trying.
>
> You could try using the terms "email alias address" and "Send As" with them
> to see if this allows your conversation to progress further.
>
> Many ISPs are a marketing shop buying the email service backend from one of
> the big email suppliers, e.g. Google, AWS, etc.  Such marketing shops
> without commensurate technical capabilities are only a step away from
> having spammers associated with their service and therefore keep features
> down to a minimum to avoid being blacklisted due to potential
> misconfigurations.
>
> > So - I'm asking if anyone can recommend an email service provider that
> > understands this and will let me set it up.  I have my own domain, but
> > namecheap.com does seem willing to have the appropriate DNS record
> > point to a different email provider.  At this point, I'm not interested
> > in running my own email server.  I currently only need two mailboxes,
> > maybe a small number more in the future, but this is personal, not
> > commercial.  I don't need to do bulk emails, maybe up to a dozen or so
> > recipients.  I do NOT expect it to be free, but cost is at least some
> > consideration.  I don't need huge storage limits, as although I use
> > IMAP access when on the road, when I'm home, I use POP3 to download
> > everything.  I'd also like at least minimal control over spam
> > filtering, mainly to let almost anything through for me to filter
> > locally.  If privateemail.com has false positives for everything from
> > some sender (such as ups.com, for example) I need to open a ticket with
> > them to add a whitelist.  No such thing as clicking on "Not spam" and
> > apparently no intent to ever do so.
> >
> > Thanks for any suggestions.
> >
> > Jack
>
> I can't make any recommendations for email ISPs.  There are a huge number of
> them marketing their services, some offering only email services, others
> include website hosting and data storage for the same price.
>
> I also use Google for mailing lists et al.  I have been thinking of moving
> away from this capitalist surveillance service, whereby the email service is
> free, but your data privacy is sold to the highest bidder, while Google
> keeps all the margin.  Although the concepts of privacy plus Internet are
> somewhat orthogonal.  I'll eventually get around to it, so please post what
> you come up with in case it suits me too.

--
Regards,

Mick

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Re: OT: looking for email provider

james-3
In reply to this post by Jack
On 2/1/20 5:08 PM, Jack wrote:

> Relying on the collective experience and advice of the group here.
>
> As may be obvious to many of you, the address this message is sent from
> "...@users.sourceforge.net" isn't really a fully functional address.  
> Email sent to that address will be forwarded by the sourceforge system
> to a personal address I specify.� When I send a message "From: " that
> address, however, I cannot send it through the sourceforge system, as I
> don't actually have an email account with them.� Currently, I send it
> through my gmail account.� That works because I added that address in my
> gmail Settings under "Accounts and Import" /� "Send mail as:".� To set
> it up, gmail sends a message to that address, and I click on a link in
> the message to prove it does come to me.� That's been working find for a
> long time, but, ...
>
> I'm trying to move away from gmail.� Especially for mailing lists like
> this one, if I send a message to the list, I never see that I get the
> message from the list, because gmail refuses to show it in my inbox
> because it's a duplicate of a message already in my sentbox.
>
> I do have an email account with privateemail.com (thorough
> namecheap.com) but they are unable or unwilling to have a similar
> setup.� I'm not even sure they actually understand what I'm asking of
> them, but I've wasted more than enough time trying.
>
> So - I'm asking if anyone can recommend an email service provider that
> understands this and will let me set it up.� I have my own domain, but
> namecheap.com does seem willing to have the appropriate DNS record point
> to a different email provider.� At this point, I'm not interested in
> running my own email server.� I currently only need two mailboxes, maybe
> a small number more in the future, but this is personal, not
> commercial.� I don't need to do bulk emails, maybe up to a dozen or so
> recipients.� I do NOT expect it to be free, but cost is at least some
> consideration.� I don't need huge storage limits, as although I use IMAP
> access when on the road, when I'm home, I use POP3 to download
> everything.� I'd also like at least minimal control over spam filtering,
> mainly to let almost anything through for me to filter locally.� If
> privateemail.com has false positives for everything from some sender
> (such as ups.com, for example) I need to open a ticket with them to add
> a whitelist.� No such thing as clicking on "Not spam" and apparently no
> intent to ever do so.
>
> Thanks for any suggestions.
>
> Jack

Hello Jack et al.,

WE all feel your pain, as the deceptions and folks with nefarious
intentions, has just exploded. My suggestion is that WE all discuss and
figure out a gentoo centric solution, that is installed, managed and
enhanced by options, all on a Gentoo centric framework. I'm almost ready
to get static IPs and roll my own via sendmail (really that desperate,
are we James?).............

Today, I ran across an interesting system that might just work, only it
needs to be 'gentoo centric' imho.


'Heimdall, an open-source personal email guardian'

https://medium.com/@fabianterh/how-i-built-heimdall-an-open-source-personal-email-guardian-68e306d172d1


So, my suggestion is that we have folks interested 'chime in' with
issues, ideas and practical suggestions, so we, the Gentoo community
solve this, once and for all.

I'm all in. Cause yesterday, I received false email from some jerk
posing as 'Credit Karma'; really, they did a pretty good job, except
Credit Karma doe snot send out unsolicited emails to non-customers, or
at least that's
what they say over the phone.

Beware::   [hidden email]

So shall WE solve, test, debug, rinse-repeat, a solution, as
brothers-in-need, or keep fighting this crap individually ?


curiously,
James

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Re: OT: looking for email provider

antlists
In reply to this post by Jack
On 01/02/20 22:08, Jack wrote:

> Relying on the collective experience and advice of the group here.
>
> As may be obvious to many of you, the address this message is sent from
> "...@users.sourceforge.net" isn't really a fully functional address.
> Email sent to that address will be forwarded by the sourceforge system
> to a personal address I specify.  When I send a message "From: " that
> address, however, I cannot send it through the sourceforge system, as I
> don't actually have an email account with them.  Currently, I send it
> through my gmail account.  That works because I added that address in my
> gmail Settings under "Accounts and Import" /  "Send mail as:".  To set
> it up, gmail sends a message to that address, and I click on a link in
> the message to prove it does come to me.  That's been working find for a
> long time, but, ...
>
> I'm trying to move away from gmail.  Especially for mailing lists like
> this one, if I send a message to the list, I never see that I get the
> message from the list, because gmail refuses to show it in my inbox
> because it's a duplicate of a message already in my sentbox.

You'll notice I'm posting from a personal domain ...

It's actually owned by my brother, but that's by the by. He uses this
company ...

http://www.hosts.co.uk/ which appears to be an old blog (I guess the
company got taken over or changed its name) but the website does say
they are now https://www.names.co.uk/ so try there instead.

You'll have to investigate exactly what the setup is yourself, but I
believe he gets a dashboard and can set up about 25 pop/imap accounts on
his domain for not much money - looks like about £5 per month. Each
account can also have multiple aliases - he's given me one imap/pop
account with two aliases. I then use their smtp host for sending. Or if
your ISP offers email addresses, you should be able to send via them - I
know my ISP assumes that since I'm logged in to their network I must be
legit ... :-)

Not knowing where you're based, but like I've got <name>.org.uk, you
might be able to get <name>.org.us or whatever - see what's free.

£60 - $80 or so - per year isn't a bad price for a personal domain that
all the family can use ... :-)

Cheers,
Wol

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Re: OT: looking for email provider

Ian Zimmerman-3
In reply to this post by Jack
On 2020-02-01 17:08, Jack wrote:

> I'm trying to move away from gmail.  Especially for mailing lists like
> this one, if I send a message to the list, I never see that I get the
> message from the list, because gmail refuses to show it in my inbox
> because it's a duplicate of a message already in my sentbox.
>
> I do have an email account with privateemail.com (thorough
> namecheap.com) but they are unable or unwilling to have a similar
> setup.  I'm not even sure they actually understand what I'm asking of
> them, but I've wasted more than enough time trying.
>
> So - I'm asking if anyone can recommend an email service provider that
> understands this and will let me set it up.

For your immediate problem, my answer would depend on whether you're OK
interacting with email entirely through the browser, or you are a
classicist like myself and want to use a "real" email client like mutt
or thunderbird.

From your writing about gmail, I am guessing it's the former: you're
okay with webmail.  In that case, I recommend that you look at
protonmail, tutanota and hushmail.  I have used all of them and I still
use protonmail for one of my personas :)  I hasten to add I have _not_
checked how easy it is to mask the sender address at any of these.

The longer view though is that this will get harder and harder, for the
reasons other people in the thread have given.  google and company will
impose their fascist anti-spam checks and they will get away with it
because most everyone uses google and company, and nobody but a few
geeks cares about the corner case of mailing lists.  

<sarcasm> Who needs mailing lists when we have web forums? </sarcasm>
This is what writers like Jon Corbet of LWN mean by "the death of
email".  And this is why, if you are one of the geeks who do care, the
only way to prolong your life with email is to set up your own server.
You're already halfway there as you have your own domain.

--
Ian

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Re: OT: looking for email provider

Daryl
In reply to this post by Jack
On Sat, 01 Feb 2020 17:08:37 -0500
Jack <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Relying on the collective experience and advice of the group here.
>
> As may be obvious to many of you, the address this message is sent
> from "...@users.sourceforge.net" isn't really a fully functional
> address. Email sent to that address will be forwarded by the
> sourceforge system to a personal address I specify.  When I send a
> message "From: " that address, however, I cannot send it through the
> sourceforge system, as I don't actually have an email account with
> them.  Currently, I send it through my gmail account.  That works
> because I added that address in my gmail Settings under "Accounts and
> Import" /  "Send mail as:".  To set it up, gmail sends a message to
> that address, and I click on a link in the message to prove it does
> come to me.  That's been working find for a long time, but, ...
>
> I'm trying to move away from gmail.  Especially for mailing lists
> like this one, if I send a message to the list, I never see that I
> get the message from the list, because gmail refuses to show it in my
> inbox because it's a duplicate of a message already in my sentbox.
>
> I do have an email account with privateemail.com (thorough  
> namecheap.com) but they are unable or unwilling to have a similar  
> setup.  I'm not even sure they actually understand what I'm asking
> of them, but I've wasted more than enough time trying.
>
> So - I'm asking if anyone can recommend an email service provider
> that understands this and will let me set it up.  I have my own
> domain, but namecheap.com does seem willing to have the appropriate
> DNS record point to a different email provider.  At this point, I'm
> not interested in running my own email server.  I currently only need
> two mailboxes, maybe a small number more in the future, but this is
> personal, not commercial.  I don't need to do bulk emails, maybe up
> to a dozen or so recipients.  I do NOT expect it to be free, but cost
> is at least some consideration.  I don't need huge storage limits, as
> although I use IMAP access when on the road, when I'm home, I use
> POP3 to download everything.  I'd also like at least minimal control
> over spam filtering, mainly to let almost anything through for me to
> filter locally.  If privateemail.com has false positives for
> everything from some sender (such as ups.com, for example) I need to
> open a ticket with them to add a whitelist.  No such thing as
> clicking on "Not spam" and apparently no intent to ever do so.
>
> Thanks for any suggestions.
>
> Jack

Why not just build your own? You can get a very small EC2 instance for
pretty cheap. Then pick your poison exim/postfix/dovcot/roundcube or
whatever.

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Re: OT: looking for email provider

Jack
In reply to this post by Ian Zimmerman-3
Hello Ian,

On 2020.02.02 13:36, Ian Zimmerman wrote:

> On 2020-02-01 17:08, Jack wrote:
>
>> I'm trying to move away from gmail.  Especially for mailing lists  
>> like this one, if I send a message to the list, I never see that I  
>> get the message from the list, because gmail refuses to show it in  
>> my inbox because it's a duplicate of a message already in my sentbox.
> >
>> I do have an email account with privateemail.com (thorough  
>> namecheap.com) but they are unable or unwilling to have a similar  
>> setup.  I'm not even sure they actually understand what I'm asking  
>> of them, but I've wasted more than enough time trying.
> >
>> So - I'm asking if anyone can recommend an email service provider  
>> that understands this and will let me set it up.
>
> For your immediate problem, my answer would depend on whether you're  
> OK interacting with email entirely through the browser, or you are a  
> classicist like myself and want to use a "real" email client like  
> mutt or thunderbird.
I absolutely detest webmail, and use it only when absolutely necessary,  
which in many cases is to look at the SPAM folder to mark something as  
Not Spam.  I use IMAP when I'm away from home (set up on android phone,  
android tablet, and Artix Linux laptop.)  At home, I pull everything by  
POP3.  Before a long trip, I rsync my whole mail hierarchy from my  
desktop to the laptop, in case I need to reference any older messages,  
although I sometimes just go digging in the Trash folder via IMAP.

> From your writing about gmail, I am guessing it's the former: you're  
> okay with webmail.  In that case, I recommend that you look at  
> protonmail, tutanota and hushmail.  I have used all of them and I  
> still use protonmail for one of my personas :)  I hasten to add I  
> have _not_ checked how easy it is to mask the sender address at any  
> of these.
First, I didn't choose, and do not actually like gmail.  If you don't  
want lots of gory details, you can skip this paragraph.  For years, I  
had email provided by my ISP (sbcglobal.net - not discussing it's  
various sales and name changes) actually managed by Yahoo.  However,  
when AT&T sold their landline business in Connecticut to Frontier,  
although my sbclobal.net addresses didn't go away, they ended up in a  
sort of limbo - it became impossible for me to get any support.  If I  
called Yahoo, they said to get support from AT&T.  If I called AT&T, as  
soon as they figured out I was in Connecticut, they transferred the  
call to Frontier.  If I called Frontier, they wouldn't help since they  
didn't control that domain.   About that time, my college stopped  
simply providing an email forwarding service, and provided a real email  
account under the alumni subdomain of the university's domain.  
Unfortunately, the actual account is gmail.  Once I realized I wanted  
something other than that, I bought my domain ostroff.xyz through  
namecheap.com.  I then set up email accounts through their provider  
privateemail.com.  So - my current goal is to get my [hidden email]  
email hosted somewhere else.

> The longer view though is that this will get harder and harder, for  
> the reasons other people in the thread have given.  google and  
> company will impose their fascist anti-spam checks and they will get  
> away with it because most everyone uses google and company, and  
> nobody but a few geeks cares about the corner case of mailing lists.
Agreed.

> <sarcasm> Who needs mailing lists when we have web forums? </sarcasm>
I absolutely agree, sarcastically or not.
> This is what writers like Jon Corbet of LWN mean by "the death of  
> email".  And this is why, if you are one of the geeks who do care,  
> the only way to prolong your life with email is to set up your own  
> server. You're already halfway there as you have your own domain.
I suppose that is where I will eventually end up, but right now, I'm  
just not up for worrying about actually running an internet facing  
service.   We'll see how one of the other replies to this thread pushes  
in that direction.

Jack
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Re: OT: looking for email provider

Jack
In reply to this post by Mick-10
Mick - thanks for the responses.

[just replying to a few specific points]

On 2020.02.02 06:27, Mick wrote:
> On Saturday, 1 February 2020 22:08:37 GMT Jack wrote:
[snip.....]

Thanks for the general info on the "alias" issue.    One minor problem  
I've had is that many email providers say the allow email aliases, but  
they are only talking about different addresses either at their same  
domain or maybe at one of several other domains they own.  Those will  
not allow an alias from a domain that they do not control.

On the DMARC issue - for a while sourceforge had their DMARC records  
set up so that a message "From: " their domain would be rejected if not  
actually sent from their domain.  They finally backed down, when they  
realized this would cause problems for everyone using one of their  
forwarding addresses.   I don't remember exactly where that discussion  
happened, but I think it was on one of the kde.org mailing lists.

[snip....]

>> I'm trying to move away from gmail.  Especially for mailing lists  
>> like this one, if I send a message to the list, I never see that I  
>> get the message from the list, because gmail refuses to show it in  
>> my inbox because it's a duplicate of a message already in my sentbox.
> I think you can use Filters and Labels[2] in Gmail to tag and then  
> move whatever you receive/send into a folder you define.
Two issues here.  First, as I download all my mail by POP3 and maintain  
it locally, using gmails filters and tags doesn't help me any.  Second,  
and perhaps I misstated this, is that a message I sent to the list  
starts out in my sentbox.  Since I sent it, Google knows I already have  
a local copy.  When the copy of the message arrives from the list, even  
if it shows up in my Google inbox, I can't download in by POP3, since  
they think I already have a copy.  In fact, there is no way in Google  
to mark a message as "New" or "Not downloaded yet" once you have  
downloaded it.  In the cases where I accidentally delete something  
locally, the only way I have found to get another copy is using IMAP.

> You could try using the terms "email alias address" and "Send As"  
> with them to see if this allows your conversation to progress further.
Thanks.  That's useful.
>
> Many ISPs are a marketing shop buying the email service backend from  
> one of the big email suppliers, e.g. Google, AWS, etc.  Such  
> marketing shops without commensurate technical capabilities are only  
> a step away from having spammers associated with their service and  
> therefore keep features down to a minimum to avoid being blacklisted  
> due to potential misconfigurations.
Understood, and that's why I'm trying to find one of those backend  
providers I can deal with directly.


Jack
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Re: OT: looking for email provider

John Covici
In reply to this post by Jack
On Sun, 02 Feb 2020 14:24:47 -0500,
Jack wrote:

>
> Hello Ian,
>
> On 2020.02.02 13:36, Ian Zimmerman wrote:
> > On 2020-02-01 17:08, Jack wrote:
> >
> >> I'm trying to move away from gmail.  Especially for mailing
> >> lists like this one, if I send a message to the list, I never
> >> see that I get the message from the list, because gmail
> >> refuses to show it in my inbox because it's a duplicate of a
> >> message already in my sentbox.
> > >
> >> I do have an email account with privateemail.com (thorough
> >> namecheap.com) but they are unable or unwilling to have a
> >> similar setup.  I'm not even sure they actually understand
> >> what I'm asking of them, but I've wasted more than enough time
> >> trying.
> > >
> >> So - I'm asking if anyone can recommend an email service
> >> provider that understands this and will let me set it up.
> >
> > For your immediate problem, my answer would depend on whether
> > you're OK interacting with email entirely through the browser,
> > or you are a classicist like myself and want to use a "real"
> > email client like mutt or thunderbird.
> I absolutely detest webmail, and use it only when absolutely
> necessary, which in many cases is to look at the SPAM folder to
> mark something as Not Spam.  I use IMAP when I'm away from home
> (set up on android phone, android tablet, and Artix Linux
> laptop.)  At home, I pull everything by POP3.  Before a long
> trip, I rsync my whole mail hierarchy from my desktop to the
> laptop, in case I need to reference any older messages, although
> I sometimes just go digging in the Trash folder via IMAP.
>
> > From your writing about gmail, I am guessing it's the former:
> > you're okay with webmail.  In that case, I recommend that you
> > look at protonmail, tutanota and hushmail.  I have used all of
> > them and I still use protonmail for one of my personas :)  I
> > hasten to add I have _not_ checked how easy it is to mask the
> > sender address at any of these.
> First, I didn't choose, and do not actually like gmail.  If you
> don't want lots of gory details, you can skip this paragraph.
> For years, I had email provided by my ISP (sbcglobal.net - not
> discussing it's various sales and name changes) actually managed
> by Yahoo.  However, when AT&T sold their landline business in
> Connecticut to Frontier, although my sbclobal.net addresses
> didn't go away, they ended up in a sort of limbo - it became
> impossible for me to get any support.  If I called Yahoo, they
> said to get support from AT&T.  If I called AT&T, as soon as they
> figured out I was in Connecticut, they transferred the call to
> Frontier.  If I called Frontier, they wouldn't help since they
> didn't control that domain.   About that time, my college stopped
> simply providing an email forwarding service, and provided a real
> email account under the alumni subdomain of the university's
> domain.  Unfortunately, the actual account is gmail.  Once I
> realized I wanted something other than that, I bought my domain
> ostroff.xyz through namecheap.com.  I then set up email accounts
> through their provider privateemail.com.  So - my current goal is
> to get my [hidden email] email hosted somewhere else.
>
> > The longer view though is that this will get harder and harder,
> > for the reasons other people in the thread have given.  google
> > and company will impose their fascist anti-spam checks and they
> > will get away with it because most everyone uses google and
> > company, and nobody but a few geeks cares about the corner case
> > of mailing lists.
> Agreed.
>
> > <sarcasm> Who needs mailing lists when we have web forums? </sarcasm>
> I absolutely agree, sarcastically or not.
> > This is what writers like Jon Corbet of LWN mean by "the death
> > of email".  And this is why, if you are one of the geeks who do
> > care, the only way to prolong your life with email is to set up
> > your own server. You're already halfway there as you have your
> > own domain.
> I suppose that is where I will eventually end up, but right now,
> I'm just not up for worrying about actually running an internet
> facing service.   We'll see how one of the other replies to this
> thread pushes in that direction.

I do have my own server, but I have problems sending to gmail address,
I never get a bounce, but the messages disappear, maybe they are in
the senders spam folder, but I don't think so.  For those messages I
use the services of my incoming mail provider which protects me
against incoming spam which would be massive for me, and also has an
outgoing mail service which I don't like to use because of its strange
mapping of its ip addresses to names, but the whole thing works after
this strange fashion.

--
Your life is like a penny.  You're going to lose it.  The question is:
How do
you spend it?

         John Covici wb2una
         [hidden email]

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Re: OT: looking for email provider

Stefan Schmiedl
"John Covici" <[hidden email]>, 02.02.2020, 23:58:

> I do have my own server, but I have problems sending to gmail address,
> I never get a bounce, but the messages disappear, maybe they are in
> the senders spam folder, but I don't think so.

As it happens, I've been investigating a DKIM-related problem for one
of my clients (turned out that MS somehow lost a TXT record in their DNS).
Since Google puts these very helpful ARC-... headers into the messages,
my gmail address was the target of several empty messages from various
senders with "test" as subject. Friday and Saturday, they showed up in
gmail's inbox and got forwarded to my own mailbox. Sunday, they ended up
gmail's spam folder, "because they were similar to several other messages
that users (????) have classified as spam".

This makes mail handling through a google account quite unreliable,
especially if you happen to deal with atypical emails.

s.


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Re: OT: looking for email provider

Laurence Perkins
In reply to this post by Jack


On Sat, 2020-02-01 at 17:08 -0500, Jack wrote:
+AD4- CAUTION: This is an EXTERNAL email. Do not click links or open
+AD4- attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is
+AD4- safe.
+AD4-
+AD4- Relying on the collective experience and advice of the group here.
+AD4-
+AD4- As may be obvious to many of you, the address this message is sent
+AD4- from
+AD4- +ACI-...+AEA-users.sourceforge.net+ACI- isn't really a fully functional address.
+AD4- Email sent to that address will be forwarded by the sourceforge
+AD4- system
+AD4- to a personal address I specify.  When I send a message +ACI-From: +ACI- that
+AD4- address, however, I cannot send it through the sourceforge system, as
+AD4- I
+AD4- don't actually have an email account with them.  Currently, I send it
+AD4- through my gmail account.  That works because I added that address in
+AD4- my gmail Settings under +ACI-Accounts and Import+ACI- /  +ACI-Send mail as:+ACI-.  To
+AD4- set it up, gmail sends a message to that address, and I click on a
+AD4- link
+AD4- in the message to prove it does come to me.  That's been working find
+AD4- for a long time, but, ...
+AD4-
+AD4- I'm trying to move away from gmail.  Especially for mailing lists
+AD4- like
+AD4- this one, if I send a message to the list, I never see that I get the
+AD4- message from the list, because gmail refuses to show it in my inbox
+AD4- because it's a duplicate of a message already in my sentbox.
+AD4-
+AD4- I do have an email account with privateemail.com (thorough
+AD4- namecheap.com) but they are unable or unwilling to have a similar
+AD4- setup.  I'm not even sure they actually understand what I'm asking of
+AD4- them, but I've wasted more than enough time trying.
+AD4-
+AD4- So - I'm asking if anyone can recommend an email service provider
+AD4- that
+AD4- understands this and will let me set it up.  I have my own domain,
+AD4- but
+AD4- namecheap.com does seem willing to have the appropriate DNS record
+AD4- point to a different email provider.  At this point, I'm not
+AD4- interested
+AD4- in running my own email server.  I currently only need two mailboxes,
+AD4- maybe a small number more in the future, but this is personal, not
+AD4- commercial.  I don't need to do bulk emails, maybe up to a dozen or
+AD4- so
+AD4- recipients.  I do NOT expect it to be free, but cost is at least some
+AD4- consideration.  I don't need huge storage limits, as although I use
+AD4- IMAP access when on the road, when I'm home, I use POP3 to download
+AD4- everything.  I'd also like at least minimal control over spam
+AD4- filtering, mainly to let almost anything through for me to filter
+AD4- locally.  If privateemail.com has false positives for everything from
+AD4- some sender (such as ups.com, for example) I need to open a ticket
+AD4- with
+AD4- them to add a whitelist.  No such thing as clicking on +ACI-Not spam+ACI- and
+AD4- apparently no intent to ever do so.
+AD4-
+AD4- Thanks for any suggestions.
+AD4-
+AD4- Jack

You might talk to your ISP.  A number of them offer custom email
hosting to businesses and will maintain the server for you, but allow
you a rather customized configuration.  So kind of like having your own
server along with someone to manage it for you.

If you do end up running your own system, look through your options
thoroughly.  Sure you can set up just a simple email server, but there
are also projects like http://citadel.org/doku.php that offer more,
integrated features for an experience similar to gmail, but without the
spying.

LMP

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Re: OT: looking for email provider

Jack
On 2020.02.06 17:36, Laurence Perkins wrote:
> On Sat, 2020-02-01 at 17:08 -0500, Jack wrote:
>> CAUTION: This is an EXTERNAL email. Do not click links or open  
>> attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is  
>> safe.
I didn't write that. :-)

> >
> > Relying on the collective experience and advice of the group here.
> >
>> As may be obvious to many of you, the address this message is sent  
>> from "...@users.sourceforge.net" isn't really a fully functional  
>> address. Email sent to that address will be forwarded by the  
>> sourceforge system to a personal address I specify.  When I send a  
>> message "From: " that address, however, I cannot send it through the  
>> sourceforge system, as I don't actually have an email account with  
>> them.  Currently, I send it through my gmail account.  That works  
>> because I added that address in my gmail Settings under "Accounts  
>> and Import" /  "Send mail as:".  To set it up, gmail sends a message  
>> to that address, and I click on a link in the message to prove it  
>> does come to me.  That's been working find for a long time, but, ...
> >
>> I'm trying to move away from gmail.  Especially for mailing lists  
>> like this one, if I send a message to the list, I never see that I  
>> get the message from the list, because gmail refuses to show it in  
>> my inbox because it's a duplicate of a message already in my sentbox.
> >
>> I do have an email account with privateemail.com (thorough  
>> namecheap.com) but they are unable or unwilling to have a similar  
>> setup.  I'm not even sure they actually understand what I'm asking  
>> of them, but I've wasted more than enough time trying.
> >
>> So - I'm asking if anyone can recommend an email service provider  
>> that understands this and will let me set it up.  I have my own  
>> domain, but namecheap.com does seem willing to have the appropriate  
>> DNS record point to a different email provider.  At this point, I'm  
>> not interested in running my own email server.  I currently only  
>> need two mailboxes, maybe a small number more in the future, but  
>> this is personal, not commercial.  I don't need to do bulk emails,  
>> maybe up to a dozen or so recipients.  I do NOT expect it to be  
>> free, but cost is at least some consideration.  I don't need huge  
>> storage limits, as although I use IMAP access when on the road, when  
>> I'm home, I use POP3 to download everything.  I'd also like at least  
>> minimal control over spam filtering, mainly to let almost anything  
>> through for me to filter locally.  If privateemail.com has false  
>> positives for everything from some sender (such as ups.com, for  
>> example) I need to open a ticket with them to add a whitelist.  No  
>> such thing as clicking on "Not spam" and apparently no intent to  
>> ever do so.
> >
> > Thanks for any suggestions.
> >
> > Jack
Laurence,

Thanks for the feedback.

> You might talk to your ISP.  A number of them offer custom email  
> hosting to businesses and will maintain the server for you, but allow  
> you a rather customized configuration.  So kind of like having your  
> own server along with someone to manage it for you.
Well, I'm in Connecticut, and my current ISP is Comcast, previous ISP  
Frontier, and I wish to have as little as possible to do with either of  
them.  A major part of the whole reason I'm doing this is to be able to  
switch ISPs without having to do anything at all and still have my  
email flow.
>
> If you do end up running your own system, look through your options  
> thoroughly.  Sure you can set up just a simple email server, but  
> there are also projects like http://citadel.org/doku.php that offer  
> more, integrated features for an experience similar to gmail, but  
> without the spying.
That certainly looks interesting, but claiming it's at all like gmail  
is not a selling point for me.

Jack
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Re: OT: looking for email provider

Grant Taylor-2
In reply to this post by Laurence Perkins
On 2/6/20 3:36 PM, Laurence Perkins wrote:
> Sure you can set up just a simple email server

Having run a personal email server for 20 years, including all
contemporary hygiene measures, I don't think "simple" and "email server"
go together any more.

I can rattle off most of what I'm doing in short order.  But when doing
so takes 5+ minutes, I think we're beyond the realm of "simple".



--
Grant . . .
unix || die

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Re: OT: looking for email provider

John Covici

On Thu, 06 Feb 2020 19:00:09 -0500,
Grant Taylor wrote:

>
> On 2/6/20 3:36 PM, Laurence Perkins wrote:
> > Sure you can set up just a simple email server
>
> Having run a personal email server for 20 years, including all
> contemporary hygiene measures, I don't think "simple" and "email
> server" go together any more.
>
> I can rattle off most of what I'm doing in short order.  But when
> doing so takes 5+ minutes, I think we're beyond the realm of
> "simple".

I do run my own mail server for years, but I would like to know how to
run those "hygene features".  I do have spf, but that is about it --
maybe this should be another thread, but I want to keep doing this and
be sure of having my mail delivered to where its going which sometimes
gmail gives me problems.

--
Your life is like a penny.  You're going to lose it.  The question is:
How do
you spend it?

         John Covici wb2una
         [hidden email]

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Re: OT: looking for email provider

Grant Taylor-2
On 2/6/20 8:56 PM, John Covici wrote:
> I do run my own mail server for years, but I would like to know how to
> run those "hygene features".  I do have spf, but that is about it --
> maybe this should be another thread, but I want to keep doing this
> and be sure of having my mail delivered to where its going which
> sometimes gmail gives me problems.

I don't know if the gentoo-user mailing list is the is the best location
to have this discussion.  If you think it is, start a new thread and
I'll reply with more information about what I'm doing.

Or, feel free to email me directly and I'll share the information off-list.



--
Grant . . .
unix || die