Small (as in footprint) window manager

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Small (as in footprint) window manager

Daniel Frey-6
I've been trying to clean up my machines (pruning world file, etc) and
am making progress.

I ran into one issue, that being on my server (mythtv, file, etc) I am
normally in text/ssh mode but occasionally I need X for something.

Does anyone have suggestions for a small-footprint window manager (I
have no need for a full desktop environment) as twm is just fugly and
sometimes not intuitive. I also don't need a file manager as I use
Midnight Commander which works well for my needs. This all stems from
occasionally needing a gui for configuring mythtv or the ability to have
two shells open side by side.

I am thinking others have most likely had this problem at some point and
have found something that's lightweight for this type of purpose.

Dan

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Re: Small (as in footprint) window manager

Dale-46
Daniel Frey wrote:

> I've been trying to clean up my machines (pruning world file, etc) and
> am making progress.
>
> I ran into one issue, that being on my server (mythtv, file, etc) I am
> normally in text/ssh mode but occasionally I need X for something.
>
> Does anyone have suggestions for a small-footprint window manager (I
> have no need for a full desktop environment) as twm is just fugly and
> sometimes not intuitive. I also don't need a file manager as I use
> Midnight Commander which works well for my needs. This all stems from
> occasionally needing a gui for configuring mythtv or the ability to
> have two shells open side by side.
>
> I am thinking others have most likely had this problem at some point
> and have found something that's lightweight for this type of purpose.
>
> Dan
>
>


It's been a while but last I used Fluxbox, it was tiny.  If you just do
a basic install, it isn't much to it.  Of course, it isn't feature rich
either but it should run well on a low powered machine or consume very
little resources on a bigger system.  I've got two fluxbox packages
installed here.  Here is some info on them.


root@fireball / # equery s x11-themes/fluxbox-styles-fluxmod x11-wm/fluxbox
 * x11-themes/fluxbox-styles-fluxmod-20050128-r1
         Total files : 1539
         Total size  : 4.22 MiB

 * x11-wm/fluxbox-1.3.7-r3
         Total files : 339
         Total size  : 3.89 MiB
root@fireball / #


I'm not sure the top one is needed.  I think I installed it so I could
tweak a few things.  At one point, I thought about switching, back when
KDE was a disaster. 

I'm sure others will have ideas but you may want to check into Fluxbos. 
Install time is pretty short.  If you don't like it, just unmerge it.  I
keep it installed here just in case a KDE update goes sideways. 

Dale

:-)  :-)

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Re: Small (as in footprint) window manager

Daniel Frey-6
On 12/1/18 8:38 PM, Dale wrote:

> It's been a while but last I used Fluxbox, it was tiny.  If you just do
> a basic install, it isn't much to it.  Of course, it isn't feature rich
> either but it should run well on a low powered machine or consume very
> little resources on a bigger system.  I've got two fluxbox packages
> installed here.  Here is some info on them.
>
>
> root@fireball / # equery s x11-themes/fluxbox-styles-fluxmod x11-wm/fluxbox
>   * x11-themes/fluxbox-styles-fluxmod-20050128-r1
>           Total files : 1539
>           Total size  : 4.22 MiB
>
>   * x11-wm/fluxbox-1.3.7-r3
>           Total files : 339
>           Total size  : 3.89 MiB
> root@fireball / #
>
>
> I'm not sure the top one is needed.  I think I installed it so I could
> tweak a few things.  At one point, I thought about switching, back when
> KDE was a disaster.
>
> I'm sure others will have ideas but you may want to check into Fluxbos.
> Install time is pretty short.  If you don't like it, just unmerge it.  I
> keep it installed here just in case a KDE update goes sideways.
>
> Dale
>
> :-)  :-)
>

Thanks Dale!

After the new stable 4.14.x kernel finishes compiling I think I'll give
that a try. I completely forgot about fluxbox. The one I was thinking
about was maybe enlightenment, but there are likely many of these things
out there.

On that machine I don't even boot to a login manager of any sort. So
keeping things simple is great.

Dan

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Re: Small (as in footprint) window manager

Dale-46
Daniel Frey wrote:

> On 12/1/18 8:38 PM, Dale wrote:
>> It's been a while but last I used Fluxbox, it was tiny.  If you just do
>> a basic install, it isn't much to it.  Of course, it isn't feature rich
>> either but it should run well on a low powered machine or consume very
>> little resources on a bigger system.  I've got two fluxbox packages
>> installed here.  Here is some info on them.
>>
>>
>> root@fireball / # equery s x11-themes/fluxbox-styles-fluxmod
>> x11-wm/fluxbox
>>   * x11-themes/fluxbox-styles-fluxmod-20050128-r1
>>           Total files : 1539
>>           Total size  : 4.22 MiB
>>
>>   * x11-wm/fluxbox-1.3.7-r3
>>           Total files : 339
>>           Total size  : 3.89 MiB
>> root@fireball / #
>>
>>
>> I'm not sure the top one is needed.  I think I installed it so I could
>> tweak a few things.  At one point, I thought about switching, back when
>> KDE was a disaster.
>>
>> I'm sure others will have ideas but you may want to check into Fluxbos.
>> Install time is pretty short.  If you don't like it, just unmerge it.  I
>> keep it installed here just in case a KDE update goes sideways.
>>
>> Dale
>>
>> :-)  :-)
>>
>
> Thanks Dale!
>
> After the new stable 4.14.x kernel finishes compiling I think I'll
> give that a try. I completely forgot about fluxbox. The one I was
> thinking about was maybe enlightenment, but there are likely many of
> these things out there.
>
> On that machine I don't even boot to a login manager of any sort. So
> keeping things simple is great.
>
> Dan
>
>

You may want to google to be sure but I think the command can be
something like:

startx <path to fluxbox> Should be /usr/bin/fluxbox. 

That's if you want to start it manually each time.  There are others
ways if you want.  I think the only requirement is a working video card
driver, nvidia-drivers in my case.

Hope you find something you like.  You are right, there are a LOT of
them out there. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

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Re: Small (as in footprint) window manager

Daniel Frey-6
On 12/1/18 9:07 PM, Dale wrote:

>
> You may want to google to be sure but I think the command can be
> something like:
>
> startx <path to fluxbox> Should be /usr/bin/fluxbox.
>
> That's if you want to start it manually each time.  There are others
> ways if you want.  I think the only requirement is a working video card
> driver, nvidia-drivers in my case.
>
> Hope you find something you like.  You are right, there are a LOT of
> them out there.
>
> Dale
>
> :-)  :-)
>

I decided to follow the wiki entry for fluxbox. Simply using `exec
startfluxbox` was enough to get me started.

I'm currently trying a couple terminals. xterm is pretty basic, I tried
eterm based on fluxbox's recommendation (but the package in gentoo
doesn't have a maintainer...) and am compiling gnusteps-apps/terminal
that was recommended as a decent terminal app. That one has a few
dependencies, including clang, but we'll see how it performs.

Fluxbox is so light that I'm considering using it on my mythtv frontends
with a terminal that I haven't quite decided on yet as a backup in case
I need to do troubleshooting.

Dan
Dan

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Re: Small (as in footprint) window manager

Róbert Čerňanský-2
In reply to this post by Dale-46
On Sat, 1 Dec 2018 22:38:01 -0600
Dale <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Daniel Frey wrote:
> > I've been trying to clean up my machines (pruning world file, etc)
> > and am making progress.
> >
> > I ran into one issue, that being on my server (mythtv, file, etc) I
> > am normally in text/ssh mode but occasionally I need X for
> > something.
> >
> > Does anyone have suggestions for a small-footprint window manager (I
> > have no need for a full desktop environment) as twm is just fugly
> > and sometimes not intuitive. I also don't need a file manager as I
> > use Midnight Commander which works well for my needs. This all
> > stems from occasionally needing a gui for configuring mythtv or the
> > ability to have two shells open side by side.
> >
> > I am thinking others have most likely had this problem at some point
> > and have found something that's lightweight for this type of
> > purpose.
> >
> > Dan
> >
> >  
>
>
> It's been a while but last I used Fluxbox, it was tiny.  If you just
> do a basic install, it isn't much to it.  Of course, it isn't feature
> rich either but it should run well on a low powered machine or
> consume very little resources on a bigger system.  I've got two
> fluxbox packages installed here.  Here is some info on them.
>
>
> root@fireball / # equery s x11-themes/fluxbox-styles-fluxmod
> x11-wm/fluxbox
>  * x11-themes/fluxbox-styles-fluxmod-20050128-r1
>          Total files : 1539
>          Total size  : 4.22 MiB
>
>  * x11-wm/fluxbox-1.3.7-r3
>          Total files : 339
>          Total size  : 3.89 MiB
> root@fireball / #

Windowmaker is also a good choice.  I'm still using for main desktop.

$ equery s windowmaker
 * x11-wm/windowmaker-0.95.8-r1
         Total files : 495
         Total size  : 5.76 MiB

Or you may consider forwarding X to the machine you are connecting
from:

 $ ssh -Y <server>

Then start whatever X application you need and it will be displayed on
your local machine.  You do not need window manager on the server.

Robert


--
Róbert Čerňanský
E-mail: [hidden email]
Jabber: [hidden email]

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Re: Small (as in footprint) window manager

Mick-10
On Sunday, 2 December 2018 09:20:13 GMT Róbert Čerňanský wrote:

> On Sat, 1 Dec 2018 22:38:01 -0600
>
> Dale <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Daniel Frey wrote:
> > > I've been trying to clean up my machines (pruning world file, etc)
> > > and am making progress.
> > >
> > > I ran into one issue, that being on my server (mythtv, file, etc) I
> > > am normally in text/ssh mode but occasionally I need X for
> > > something.
> > >
> > > Does anyone have suggestions for a small-footprint window manager (I
> > > have no need for a full desktop environment) as twm is just fugly
> > > and sometimes not intuitive. I also don't need a file manager as I
> > > use Midnight Commander which works well for my needs. This all
> > > stems from occasionally needing a gui for configuring mythtv or the
> > > ability to have two shells open side by side.
> > >
> > > I am thinking others have most likely had this problem at some point
> > > and have found something that's lightweight for this type of
> > > purpose.
> > >
> > > Dan
> >
> > It's been a while but last I used Fluxbox, it was tiny.  If you just
> > do a basic install, it isn't much to it.  Of course, it isn't feature
> > rich either but it should run well on a low powered machine or
> > consume very little resources on a bigger system.  I've got two
> > fluxbox packages installed here.  Here is some info on them.
> >
> >
> > root@fireball / # equery s x11-themes/fluxbox-styles-fluxmod
> > x11-wm/fluxbox
> >  * x11-themes/fluxbox-styles-fluxmod-20050128-r1
> >          Total files : 1539
> >          Total size  : 4.22 MiB
> >
> >  * x11-wm/fluxbox-1.3.7-r3
> >          Total files : 339
> >          Total size  : 3.89 MiB
> > root@fireball / #
>
> Windowmaker is also a good choice.  I'm still using for main desktop.
>
> $ equery s windowmaker
>  * x11-wm/windowmaker-0.95.8-r1
>          Total files : 495
>          Total size  : 5.76 MiB
>
> Or you may consider forwarding X to the machine you are connecting
> from:
>
>  $ ssh -Y <server>
>
> Then start whatever X application you need and it will be displayed on
> your local machine.  You do not need window manager on the server.
>
> Robert
It hasn't been mentioned, but if the main use case is to have more than one
terminal running in the same login session, you could use tmux on a console
and split that into multiple terminals on the same screen.

If you try enlightenment you should use the old e16, which is relatively
lightweight and still maintained.

--
Regards,
Mick

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Re: Small (as in footprint) window manager

Jack
In reply to this post by Daniel Frey-6
On 2018.12.01 23:21, Daniel Frey wrote:

> I've been trying to clean up my machines (pruning world file, etc)  
> and am making progress.
>
> I ran into one issue, that being on my server (mythtv, file, etc) I  
> am normally in text/ssh mode but occasionally I need X for something.
>
> Does anyone have suggestions for a small-footprint window manager (I  
> have no need for a full desktop environment) as twm is just fugly and  
> sometimes not intuitive. I also don't need a file manager as I use  
> Midnight Commander which works well for my needs. This all stems from  
> occasionally needing a gui for configuring mythtv or the ability to  
> have two shells open side by side.
>
> I am thinking others have most likely had this problem at some point  
> and have found something that's lightweight for this type of purpose.
>
> Dan
>
What about not installing xorg at all on that box, and just ssh'ing in  
from a different PC with full desktop setup  when you need a gui?

Jack
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Re: Small (as in footprint) window manager

Grant Edwards-6
On 2018-12-02, Jack <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 2018.12.01 23:21, Daniel Frey wrote:

>> I ran into one issue, that being on my server (mythtv, file, etc) I  
>> am normally in text/ssh mode but occasionally I need X for something.
>>
>> [...]
>>
>> This all stems from occasionally needing a gui for configuring
>> mythtv or the ability to have two shells open side by side.

> What about not installing xorg at all on that box, and just ssh'ing in  
> from a different PC with full desktop setup  when you need a gui?

That's mostly what I used to do when I ran a headless MythTV server.
You have to have all the X11 _client_ stuff installed on the MythTV
server, but you don't actually have to have an X11 server on the
MythTV server.  You can run the MythTV GUI configuration program
remotely via the normal command line magic "DISPLAY=<whatever>
mythtv-setup", or you can let ssh -X/-Y options handle it for you with
somethi8ng like "ssh -X mythtv-setup@my-mythv-server".

MythTV's requirement to use a GUI setup program on a "headless"
server, always seemed like a massively stupid design decision.

That said, it's been many years since I've run MythTV.  I switched to
SageTV because of the brilliantly small and silent set-top-boxes. But
Google bought SageTV and pulled the plug on that, so a year or two
back I switched to Plex (which you configure via a web UI).  The Plex
plugin for OSMC/Kodi has a clumsy UI, but works pretty well.  However,
the Plex app for Roku seems to be useless...

--
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! ... I want a COLOR
                                  at               T.V. and a VIBRATING BED!!!
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Re: Small (as in footprint) window manager

Daniel Frey-6
On 12/2/18 11:14 AM, Grant Edwards wrote:
>
> MythTV's requirement to use a GUI setup program on a "headless"
> server, always seemed like a massively stupid design decision.

Yes, it was a dumb decision. However, I suppose it's better than having
to edit that by hand... they could've uses a cli or curses interface or
something.

>
> That said, it's been many years since I've run MythTV.  I switched to
> SageTV because of the brilliantly small and silent set-top-boxes. But
> Google bought SageTV and pulled the plug on that, so a year or two
> back I switched to Plex (which you configure via a web UI).  The Plex
> plugin for OSMC/Kodi has a clumsy UI, but works pretty well.  However,
> the Plex app for Roku seems to be useless...
>

I've only ever run MythTV. Lately though I use Kodi with Kodi's Myth
plugin on all TVs but my living room TV and computer.

Usually when I'm doing work to this I'm physically in front of it.
Fluxbox seems nice, going to try windowmaker and it's terminal but gcc
barfed compiling Objective-C support. Trying it again... one of my PCs
compiled the objc USE-flag fine, and the other didn't.


Dan

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Re: Small (as in footprint) window manager

William Kenworthy
ratpoison is a good option for mythtv - no mouse but it maps keyboard to
window manager functions.  Ideal for using a remote as its easy to map
the keys.

BillK


On 3/12/18 4:54 am, Daniel Frey wrote:

> On 12/2/18 11:14 AM, Grant Edwards wrote:
>>
>> MythTV's requirement to use a GUI setup program on a "headless"
>> server, always seemed like a massively stupid design decision.
>
> Yes, it was a dumb decision. However, I suppose it's better than
> having to edit that by hand... they could've uses a cli or curses
> interface or something.
>
>>
>> That said, it's been many years since I've run MythTV.  I switched to
>> SageTV because of the brilliantly small and silent set-top-boxes. But
>> Google bought SageTV and pulled the plug on that, so a year or two
>> back I switched to Plex (which you configure via a web UI).  The Plex
>> plugin for OSMC/Kodi has a clumsy UI, but works pretty well.  However,
>> the Plex app for Roku seems to be useless...
>>
>
> I've only ever run MythTV. Lately though I use Kodi with Kodi's Myth
> plugin on all TVs but my living room TV and computer.
>
> Usually when I'm doing work to this I'm physically in front of it.
> Fluxbox seems nice, going to try windowmaker and it's terminal but gcc
> barfed compiling Objective-C support. Trying it again... one of my PCs
> compiled the objc USE-flag fine, and the other didn't.
>
>
> Dan
>


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Re: Program for posting to a Newsgroup

Thomas Mueller-2
In reply to this post by Daniel Frey-6

Daniel Frey wrote:
> I've been trying to clean up my machines (pruning world file, etc) and
> am making progress.
       
> I ran into one issue, that being on my server (mythtv, file, etc) I am
> normally in text/ssh mode but occasionally I need X for something.
       
> Does anyone have suggestions for a small-footprint window manager (I
> have no need for a full desktop environment) as twm is just fugly and
> sometimes not intuitive. I also don't need a file manager as I use
> Midnight Commander which works well for my needs. This all stems from
> occasionally needing a gui for configuring mythtv or the ability to
> have two shells open side by side.
       
> I am thinking others have most likely had this problem at some point
> and have found something that's lightweight for this type of purpose.
       
> Dan  

I use icewm 1.3.8, now feel stuck in a rut because I want to also try jwm, ratpoison and i3, and upgrade where possible to icewm 1.4.x .

I see also the suggestion

 $ ssh -Y <server>

but what would be the syntax for specifying <server> where <server> is a different computer on the same local network?

Tom


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Re: Small (as in footprint) window manager

Peter Humphrey-3
In reply to this post by Daniel Frey-6
On Sunday, 2 December 2018 04:21:19 GMT Daniel Frey wrote:

> I've been trying to clean up my machines (pruning world file, etc) and
> am making progress.
>
> I ran into one issue, that being on my server (mythtv, file, etc) I am
> normally in text/ssh mode but occasionally I need X for something.
>
> Does anyone have suggestions for a small-footprint window manager (I
> have no need for a full desktop environment) as twm is just fugly and
> sometimes not intuitive. I also don't need a file manager as I use
> Midnight Commander which works well for my needs. This all stems from
> occasionally needing a gui for configuring mythtv or the ability to have
> two shells open side by side.
>
> I am thinking others have most likely had this problem at some point and
> have found something that's lightweight for this type of purpose.

I've just noticed this:

[N] x11-wm/xpra ((~)2.2.6-r1): X Persistent Remote Apps (xpra) and
Partitioning WM (parti) based on wimpiggy

I haven't looked into it, but it may perhaps offer something useful.

--
Regards,
Peter.




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Re: Small (as in footprint) window manager

Grant Edwards-6
In reply to this post by Daniel Frey-6
On 2018-12-02, Daniel Frey <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 12/2/18 11:14 AM, Grant Edwards wrote:
>>
>> MythTV's requirement to use a GUI setup program on a "headless"
>> server, always seemed like a massively stupid design decision.
>
> Yes, it was a dumb decision. However, I suppose it's better than having
> to edit that by hand... they could've uses a cli or curses interface or
> something.

A web UI has been pretty much the standard way to of doing things like
that for the past few decades.

--
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! !!  I am having fun!!!
                                  at              
                              gmail.com            


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Re: Program for posting to a Newsgroup

Grant Edwards-6
In reply to this post by Thomas Mueller-2
On 2018-12-03, Thomas Mueller <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I see also the suggestion
>
>  $ ssh -Y <server>
>
> but what would be the syntax for specifying <server> where <server>
> is a different computer on the same local network?

Does it have an IP address?

--
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! I just went below the
                                  at               poverty line!
                              gmail.com            


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Re: Small (as in footprint) window manager

Thomas Mueller-2
In reply to this post by Jack
> On 2018-12-03, Thomas Mueller <[hidden email]> wrote:

> > I see also the suggestion
 
> >  $ ssh -Y <server>
 
> > but what would be the syntax for specifying <server> where <server>
> > is a different computer on the same local network?

> Does it have an IP address?
 
> Grant Edwards

I see where I missed changing the Subject from an old message: embarrassing on me.

Being on the same local network, the other machine would have an intranet IP address of 192.168.0.x, where x would be a number >= 2.

I have mounted file systems by NFS but have never accessed an X server by ssh.  I don't think I ever used ssh command directly.

Tom


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Re: Small (as in footprint) window manager

J. Roeleveld
In reply to this post by Jack
# ssh -Y <username>@<hostname>

"<username>@" is optional. Without it, ssh will use the username you are using on the client.
"<hostname>" is either an IP address or, if you have a hosts file or DNS server configured, the hostname.

The "-Y" sorts out the forwarding for X applications.

--
Joost

On December 4, 2018 5:26:09 AM UTC, Thomas Mueller <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 2018-12-03, Thomas Mueller <[hidden email]> wrote:

I see also the suggestion

$ ssh -Y <server>

but what would be the syntax for specifying <server> where <server>
is a different computer on the same local network?

Does it have an IP address?

Grant Edwards

I see where I missed changing the Subject from an old message: embarrassing on me.

Being on the same local network, the other machine would have an intranet IP address of 192.168.0.x, where x would be a number >= 2.

I have mounted file systems by NFS but have never accessed an X server by ssh. I don't think I ever used ssh command directly.

Tom



--
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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Re: Small (as in footprint) window manager

james-3
In reply to this post by Daniel Frey-6
On 12/1/18 11:21 PM, Daniel Frey wrote:

> I've been trying to clean up my machines (pruning world file, etc) and
> am making progress.
>
> I ran into one issue, that being on my server (mythtv, file, etc) I am
> normally in text/ssh mode but occasionally I need X for something.
>
> Does anyone have suggestions for a small-footprint window manager (I
> have no need for a full desktop environment) as twm is just fugly and
> sometimes not intuitive. I also don't need a file manager as I use
> Midnight Commander which works well for my needs. This all stems from
> occasionally needing a gui for configuring mythtv or the ability to have
> two shells open side by side.
>
> I am thinking others have most likely had this problem at some point and
> have found something that's lightweight for this type of purpose.
>
> Dan
>
>

Hello Dan:: lots of good suggestions. you can look in
/usr/portage/x11/wm (or whereevery /etc/portage/x11-wm for a listing of
what in the tree for smaller.

I have been wanting to try lumina::

https://lumina-desktop.org/features/

"does not require PolicyKit, HAL or systemd"


if you have a few/limited scope of codes to run, it might just be
what you are looking for......

good_hunting,

James

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Re: Small (as in footprint) window manager

Daniel Frey-6
On 12/5/18 1:34 PM, james wrote:

> Hello Dan:: lots of good suggestions. you can look in
> /usr/portage/x11/wm (or whereevery /etc/portage/x11-wm for a listing of
> what in the tree for smaller.
>
> I have been wanting to try lumina::
>
> https://lumina-desktop.org/features/
>
> "does not require PolicyKit, HAL or systemd"
>
>
> if you have a few/limited scope of codes to run, it might just be
> what you are looking for......
>
> good_hunting,
>
> James
>

I've tried a few now (windowmaker, icewm, fluxbox, and the lumina
desktop.) I think for my needs fluxbox and eterm are all I need.

That Lumina desktop looks interesting, but I couldn't get it to start on
my machine. It went through the startup of the desktop, but as soon as
it showed me the desktop something crashed (I think??) Looking through
the logs I found this for the Lumina desktop:

qt.qpa.xcb: QXcbConnection: XCB error: 1 (BadRequest), sequence: 627,
resource id: 6291470, major code: 142 (Unknown), minor code: 1

But Google reveals nothing.

So fluxbox it is!

Dan