Trouble on the horizon!

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Trouble on the horizon!

Alan Grimes
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Re: Trouble on the horizon!

Adam Carter

Whatever SJWs touch, DIES.

What do you think will be the outcome in this case? 

What will die and what be the indicator of death?


 


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5VvJiNUCIA

https://itsfoss.com/linux-code-of-conduct/

https://lulz.com/linux-devs-threaten-killswitch-coc-controversy-1252/



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Re: Trouble on the horizon!

Nikos Chantziaras-2
In reply to this post by Alan Grimes
On 24/09/2018 10:02, Alan Grimes wrote:
> Whatever SJWs touch, DIES.
>
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5VvJiNUCIA
>
> https://itsfoss.com/linux-code-of-conduct/
>
> https://lulz.com/linux-devs-threaten-killswitch-coc-controversy-1252/

To me it looks like youtubers and some sites trying to make money
through clickbait?


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Re: Trouble on the horizon!

R0b0t1
On Mon, Sep 24, 2018 at 11:01 AM, Nikos Chantziaras <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> To me it looks like youtubers and some sites trying to make money through
> clickbait?
>

If you had not heard of it elsewhere the Linux code of conduct was
amended. It makes the CoC similar to those of other projects where
there are a number of (usually nontechnical) contributors who identify
as a champion of social justice.

The second link is not horrible, but I think is badly formatted. Here
is a picture for you:
https://4bds6hergc-flywheel.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/croraline-meritocracy.jpg.

The last link is actually very informative. I would recommend reading
it. Some contributors have apparently threatened to revoke the license
to their code which is now in Linux.

My personal opinion is that generally these CoC documents do not do
what they set out to do. Even without a contributor agreement people
can be and are ejected from projects for any reason. However, the
particular entourage that follows these CoCs can be harmful for a
community due to the regularity they find offense with other people.
You find under the "SJW" label people who think a man accused of rape
has no legal rights, etc... So CoC violations tend to devolve into
witchhunts.


My personal experience was that I was not really able to go to school
because of my gender. I am male. I had female classmates with worse
grades than I did that had school completely paid for due to
scholarships. If I tried to say this to some people they would blow up
in my face because of my race and gender, but would claim they are not
racist or sexist.

It is fine to say not everyone is like that, but trying to divorce a
movement from its most vocal subgroups is the
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman.

Cheers,
    R0b0t1

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Re: Trouble on the horizon!

Nikos Chantziaras-2
On 24/09/2018 13:11, R0b0t1 wrote:

> On Mon, Sep 24, 2018 at 11:01 AM, Nikos Chantziaras <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> To me it looks like youtubers and some sites trying to make money through
>> clickbait?
>>
>
> If you had not heard of it elsewhere the Linux code of conduct was
> amended. It makes the CoC similar to those of other projects where
> there are a number of (usually nontechnical) contributors who identify
> as a champion of social justice.
> [...]
Well, if kernel developers are fine with that, then I don't see how
that's relevant to anyone who isn't a kernel dev. If they want to adopt
social justice politics, that's really their prerogative.


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Re: Trouble on the horizon!

R0b0t1
On Mon, Sep 24, 2018 at 12:33 PM, Nikos Chantziaras <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 24/09/2018 13:11, R0b0t1 wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 24, 2018 at 11:01 AM, Nikos Chantziaras <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> To me it looks like youtubers and some sites trying to make money through
>>> clickbait?
>>>
>>
>> If you had not heard of it elsewhere the Linux code of conduct was
>> amended. It makes the CoC similar to those of other projects where
>> there are a number of (usually nontechnical) contributors who identify
>> as a champion of social justice.
>> [...]
>
> Well, if kernel developers are fine with that, then I don't see how that's
> relevant to anyone who isn't a kernel dev. If they want to adopt social
> justice politics, that's really their prerogative.
>
>

I suspect why he posted it is at least a few developers do not want
this to happen. Other large projects have had similar turmoil, but
there is usually no remedy if you disagree.

E.g. Django(?) had a large patch committed that changed the names of
master/slave to something else as the terms were considered abusive by
what looks to be a minority.

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Re: Trouble on the horizon!

Philip Webb-2
In reply to this post by Alan Grimes
180924 Alan Grimes wrote:
> Whatever SJWs touch, DIES.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5VvJiNUCIA
> https://itsfoss.com/linux-code-of-conduct/
> https://lulz.com/linux-devs-threaten-killswitch-coc-controversy-1252/

I read the texts via LWN.  Linus has been the sergeant-major
who has to yell at the troops sometimes, when they get sloppy.
He's a brilliant software engineer & generally knows how to herd cats.

The problem seems to have arisen when he arranged a family holiday
which clashed with an important Linux conference
& irritated a lot of important people in the corporate Linux world.
He's  48 yo  & beginning to age a bit & it's no threat to anyone
if he's decided to take a break for a few kernel cycles.
I did note in a msg to this list earlier this year (2018)
that there had been no kernel stabilised by Gentoo since spring 2017,
which suggested there had been some decline in kernel quality.

As for New Yorker + their drama queen Ms Theythem,
they're simply trying to cash in on the incident to promote themselves.
The rest of us should concentrate on the real world + its many problems.

My  CAD 0,02 .

--
========================,,============================================
SUPPORT     ___________//___,   Philip Webb
ELECTRIC   /] [] [] [] [] []|   Cities Centre, University of Toronto
TRANSIT    `-O----------O---'   purslowatchassdotutorontodotca


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Re: Trouble on the horizon!

Rich Freeman
On Mon, Sep 24, 2018 at 8:42 AM Philip Webb <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> The problem seems to have arisen when he arranged a family holiday
> which clashed with an important Linux conference
> & irritated a lot of important people in the corporate Linux world.

I can't imagine that it helped when they moved the conference to where
he was going to be.  If somebody had booked flights months ago to get
lower rates, had hotels reserved, and so on, then that is a lot of
rebooking, change fees, and so on, and chances are the accommodations
aren't the same as what you'd have gotten with planning ahead.

> He's  48 yo  & beginning to age a bit & it's no threat to anyone
> if he's decided to take a break for a few kernel cycles.

++  Nobody owns Linus.  By now the kernel should be at a point where
others can manage the workflow if he isn't around.

--
Rich

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Re: Trouble on the horizon!

Jack
On 2018.09.24 08:59, Rich Freeman wrote:
> ++  Nobody owns Linus.

Ain't that the truth, even if it is a typo.

Jack
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Re: Trouble on the horizon!

J. Roeleveld
In reply to this post by Philip Webb-2
On Monday, September 24, 2018 2:42:49 PM CEST Philip Webb wrote:

> 180924 Alan Grimes wrote:
> > Whatever SJWs touch, DIES.
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5VvJiNUCIA
> > https://itsfoss.com/linux-code-of-conduct/
> > https://lulz.com/linux-devs-threaten-killswitch-coc-controversy-1252/
>
> I read the texts via LWN.  Linus has been the sergeant-major
> who has to yell at the troops sometimes, when they get sloppy.
> He's a brilliant software engineer & generally knows how to herd cats.
>
> The problem seems to have arisen when he arranged a family holiday
> which clashed with an important Linux conference
> & irritated a lot of important people in the corporate Linux world.
> He's  48 yo  & beginning to age a bit & it's no threat to anyone
> if he's decided to take a break for a few kernel cycles.
> I did note in a msg to this list earlier this year (2018)
> that there had been no kernel stabilised by Gentoo since spring 2017,
> which suggested there had been some decline in kernel quality.

Gentoo-sources-4.14.65 is stable in the tree. Which is quite recent.

Which are you referring to?

--
Joost



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Re: Trouble on the horizon!

J. Roeleveld
In reply to this post by Rich Freeman
On Monday, September 24, 2018 2:59:02 PM CEST Rich Freeman wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 24, 2018 at 8:42 AM Philip Webb <[hidden email]> wrote:

> > He's  48 yo  & beginning to age a bit & it's no threat to anyone
> > if he's decided to take a break for a few kernel cycles.
>
> ++  Nobody owns Linus.

Except maybe his wife ;)

> By now the kernel should be at a point where
> others can manage the workflow if he isn't around.

I would assume so.




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Re : kernel delay

Philip Webb-2
In reply to this post by J. Roeleveld
180924 J. Roeleveld wrote:
> On Monday, September 24, 2018 2:42:49 PM CEST Philip Webb wrote:
>> I did note in a msg to this list earlier this year (2018)
>> that there had been no kernel stabilised by Gentoo since spring 2017,
>> which suggested there had been some decline in kernel quality.
> Gentoo-sources-4.14.65 is stable in the tree. Which is quite recent.
> Which are you referring to?

I wrote above 'had', not 'has' : look at the list archive for details.

--
========================,,============================================
SUPPORT     ___________//___,   Philip Webb
ELECTRIC   /] [] [] [] [] []|   Cities Centre, University of Toronto
TRANSIT    `-O----------O---'   purslowatchassdotutorontodotca


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Re: Trouble on the horizon!

gevisz
In reply to this post by J. Roeleveld
пн, 24 сент. 2018 г. в 21:24, J. Roeleveld <[hidden email]>:
> On Monday, September 24, 2018 2:42:49 PM CEST Philip Webb wrote:
> > I did note in a msg to this list earlier this year (2018)
> > that there had been no kernel stabilised by Gentoo since spring 2017,
> > which suggested there had been some decline in kernel quality.
>
> Gentoo-sources-4.14.65 is stable in the tree. Which is quite recent.

After I configured gentoo-sources-4.14.52 kernel with make oldconfig,
it even could not shut down the computer. So, I came to the same
decision about kernel quality and masked everything later than
gentoo-sources-4.9.95. (My 5 cents. :)

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Re: Trouble on the horizon!

Mark David Dumlao-3
In reply to this post by Nikos Chantziaras-2
On Mon, Sep 24, 2018 at 6:34 PM Nikos Chantziaras <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On 24/09/2018 13:11, R0b0t1 wrote:
> > On Mon, Sep 24, 2018 at 11:01 AM, Nikos Chantziaras <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>
> >> To me it looks like youtubers and some sites trying to make money through
> >> clickbait?
> >>
> >
> > If you had not heard of it elsewhere the Linux code of conduct was
> > amended. It makes the CoC similar to those of other projects where
> > there are a number of (usually nontechnical) contributors who identify
> > as a champion of social justice.
> > [...]
> Well, if kernel developers are fine with that, then I don't see how
> that's relevant to anyone who isn't a kernel dev. If they want to adopt
> social justice politics, that's really their prerogative.
>

Actually, social justice politics didn't seem to have anything to do
with the CoC
adoption. It was more of Linus taking a backseat (due to how he self-assessed
his vacation behavior) and pretty soon after, they adopted CoC, most likely as
some kind of "standardization"

Barely a week has passed since the CoC though, and already there are political
manuevers to oust high-profile kernel devs to the point that some contributors
have started talks on exercising their copyright privileges and
withholding their
code. Which they have a right to do, by the way, if they feel the foundation
has betrayed them.

So as esr has put it:
> First, let me confirm that this threat has teeth. I researched the relevant law
> when I was founding the Open Source Initiative. In the U.S. there is case law
> confirming that reputational losses relating to conversion of the rights of a
> contributor to a GPLed project are judicable in law. I do not know the case law
> outside the U.S., but in countries observing the Berne Convention without the
> U.S.’s opt-out of the “moral rights” clause, that clause probably gives the
> objectors an even stronger case.

(http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=8139)

This is not a little online trollfest that only affects kernel devs.
This can affect
literally everything. Biblical proportions, dogs and cats living together, etc.
--
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Response needed:  [ ] yes          [ ] up to you  [x] no
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Re: Trouble on the horizon!

J. Roeleveld
In reply to this post by gevisz
On September 25, 2018 4:36:27 AM UTC, gevisz <[hidden email]> wrote:

>пн, 24 сент. 2018 г. в 21:24, J. Roeleveld <[hidden email]>:
>> On Monday, September 24, 2018 2:42:49 PM CEST Philip Webb wrote:
>> > I did note in a msg to this list earlier this year (2018)
>> > that there had been no kernel stabilised by Gentoo since spring
>2017,
>> > which suggested there had been some decline in kernel quality.
>>
>> Gentoo-sources-4.14.65 is stable in the tree. Which is quite recent.
>
>After I configured gentoo-sources-4.14.52 kernel with make oldconfig,
>it even could not shut down the computer. So, I came to the same
>decision about kernel quality and masked everything later than
>gentoo-sources-4.9.95. (My 5 cents. :)

That is interesting.
I did not have that issue with .52 nor with .65.

Where does the shutdown hang?

--
Joost
--
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

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Re: Trouble on the horizon!

gevisz
вт, 25 сент. 2018 г. в 9:15, J. Roeleveld <[hidden email]>:

>
> On September 25, 2018 4:36:27 AM UTC, gevisz <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >пн, 24 сент. 2018 г. в 21:24, J. Roeleveld <[hidden email]>:
> >> On Monday, September 24, 2018 2:42:49 PM CEST Philip Webb wrote:
> >> > I did note in a msg to this list earlier this year (2018)
> >> > that there had been no kernel stabilised by Gentoo since spring
> >2017,
> >> > which suggested there had been some decline in kernel quality.
> >>
> >> Gentoo-sources-4.14.65 is stable in the tree. Which is quite recent.
> >
> >After I configured gentoo-sources-4.14.52 kernel with make oldconfig,
> >it even could not shut down the computer. So, I came to the same
> >decision about kernel quality and masked everything later than
> >gentoo-sources-4.9.95. (My 5 cents. :)
>
> That is interesting.
> I did not have that issue with .52 nor with .65.
>
> Where does the shutdown hang?

Thank you for replying to my comment. Unfortunately, I already do not
remember exactly what happend after the usual "shutdown -h now"
command but as far as I can remember, it did not switched off the power
at the end of the shutdown process.

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Re: Trouble on the horizon!

J. Roeleveld
On Tuesday, September 25, 2018 8:23:53 AM CEST gevisz wrote:

> вт, 25 сент. 2018 г. в 9:15, J. Roeleveld <[hidden email]>:
> > On September 25, 2018 4:36:27 AM UTC, gevisz <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >пн, 24 сент. 2018 г. в 21:24, J. Roeleveld <[hidden email]>:
> > >> On Monday, September 24, 2018 2:42:49 PM CEST Philip Webb wrote:
> > >> > I did note in a msg to this list earlier this year (2018)
> > >> > that there had been no kernel stabilised by Gentoo since spring
> > >
> > >2017,
> > >
> > >> > which suggested there had been some decline in kernel quality.
> > >>
> > >> Gentoo-sources-4.14.65 is stable in the tree. Which is quite recent.
> > >
> > >After I configured gentoo-sources-4.14.52 kernel with make oldconfig,
> > >it even could not shut down the computer. So, I came to the same
> > >decision about kernel quality and masked everything later than
> > >gentoo-sources-4.9.95. (My 5 cents. :)
> >
> > That is interesting.
> > I did not have that issue with .52 nor with .65.
> >
> > Where does the shutdown hang?
>
> Thank you for replying to my comment. Unfortunately, I already do not
> remember exactly what happend after the usual "shutdown -h now"
> command but as far as I can remember, it did not switched off the power
> at the end of the shutdown process.

I did have this with older kernels. Think it's caused by missing ACPI options.

--
Joost




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Re: Trouble on the horizon!

gevisz
вт, 25 сент. 2018 г. в 10:12, J. Roeleveld <[hidden email]>:

>
> On Tuesday, September 25, 2018 8:23:53 AM CEST gevisz wrote:
> > вт, 25 сент. 2018 г. в 9:15, J. Roeleveld <[hidden email]>:
> > > On September 25, 2018 4:36:27 AM UTC, gevisz <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > >пн, 24 сент. 2018 г. в 21:24, J. Roeleveld <[hidden email]>:
> > > >> On Monday, September 24, 2018 2:42:49 PM CEST Philip Webb wrote:
> > > >> > I did note in a msg to this list earlier this year (2018)
> > > >> > that there had been no kernel stabilised by Gentoo
> > > >> > since spring 2017, which suggested there had been some
> > > >> > decline in kernel quality.
> > > >>
> > > >> Gentoo-sources-4.14.65 is stable in the tree. Which is quite recent.
> > > >
> > > >After I configured gentoo-sources-4.14.52 kernel with make oldconfig,
> > > >it even could not shut down the computer. So, I came to the same
> > > >decision about kernel quality and masked everything later than
> > > >gentoo-sources-4.9.95. (My 5 cents. :)
> > >
> > > That is interesting.
> > > I did not have that issue with .52 nor with .65.
> > >
> > > Where does the shutdown hang?
> >
> > Thank you for replying to my comment. Unfortunately, I already do not
> > remember exactly what happend after the usual "shutdown -h now"
> > command but as far as I can remember, it did not switched off the power
> > at the end of the shutdown process.
>
> I did have this with older kernels. Think it's caused by missing ACPI options.

My previous kernel was 4.9.95 and the system shut down ok with it.
Then I configured 4.14.52 using make oldconfig and the old .config
from 4.9.95 kernel. And, after the usual compilation and installation
of the new kernel, the system could not shut down.

To not clutter this mailing list, I will send the both kernel configutations
only to your e-mail adress now.

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Re: Re : kernel delay

Peter Humphrey-3
In reply to this post by Philip Webb-2
On Monday, 24 September 2018 23:55:31 BST Philip Webb wrote:

> 180924 J. Roeleveld wrote:
> > On Monday, September 24, 2018 2:42:49 PM CEST Philip Webb wrote:
> >> I did note in a msg to this list earlier this year (2018)
> >> that there had been no kernel stabilised by Gentoo since spring 2017,
> >> which suggested there had been some decline in kernel quality.
> >
> > Gentoo-sources-4.14.65 is stable in the tree. Which is quite recent.
> > Which are you referring to?
>
> I wrote above 'had', not 'has' : look at the list archive for details.

[OT]
Unfortunately, Americans (and those others who have learned English from
Americans) don't understand the pluperfect. They've thrown out four entire
verb tenses just in my lifetime.
[/OT]

--
Regards,
Peter.




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Re: Trouble on the horizon!

antlists
In reply to this post by Mark David Dumlao-3
On 25/09/18 05:49, Mark David Dumlao wrote:

> On Mon, Sep 24, 2018 at 6:34 PM Nikos Chantziaras <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> On 24/09/2018 13:11, R0b0t1 wrote:
>>> On Mon, Sep 24, 2018 at 11:01 AM, Nikos Chantziaras <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> To me it looks like youtubers and some sites trying to make money through
>>>> clickbait?
>>>>
>>>
>>> If you had not heard of it elsewhere the Linux code of conduct was
>>> amended. It makes the CoC similar to those of other projects where
>>> there are a number of (usually nontechnical) contributors who identify
>>> as a champion of social justice.
>>> [...]
>> Well, if kernel developers are fine with that, then I don't see how
>> that's relevant to anyone who isn't a kernel dev. If they want to adopt
>> social justice politics, that's really their prerogative.
>>
If you read LWN, actually a lot of kernel devs aren't fine with it -
they didn't have any say, and don't like it.
>
> Actually, social justice politics didn't seem to have anything to do
> with the CoC
> adoption. It was more of Linus taking a backseat (due to how he self-assessed
> his vacation behavior) and pretty soon after, they adopted CoC, most likely as
> some kind of "standardization"
>
> Barely a week has passed since the CoC though, and already there are political
> manuevers to oust high-profile kernel devs

How are they going to achieve that? As has been pointed out, if Linus
continues to trust them, and treat them as lieutenants, there's nothing
the SJWs can do. There's also been comments that - actually - one person
in particular who's been a bit of an SJW is actually in breach of the
CoC herself, so those manoeuvres could backfire spectacularly.

> to the point that some contributors
> have started talks on exercising their copyright privileges and
> withholding their
> code. Which they have a right to do, by the way, if they feel the foundation
> has betrayed them.

Withholding their code FROM WHOM?

>
> So as esr has put it:
>> First, let me confirm that this threat has teeth. I researched the relevant law
>> when I was founding the Open Source Initiative. In the U.S. there is case law
>> confirming that reputational losses relating to conversion of the rights of a
>> contributor to a GPLed project are judicable in law. I do not know the case law
>> outside the U.S., but in countries observing the Berne Convention without the
>> U.S.’s opt-out of the “moral rights” clause, that clause probably gives the
>> objectors an even stronger case.
>
> (http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=8139)
>
> This is not a little online trollfest that only affects kernel devs.
> This can affect
> literally everything. Biblical proportions, dogs and cats living together, etc.
>
As we know from the SCOG case, pretty much everything is judicable in
American law, even when they have absolutely no case. Are you telling me
that I can withdraw YOUR right to use my code, just because I dislike
what some random 3rd party with no relationship to either of us has
done? Surely that pretty blatantly falls foul of estoppel. Although of
course that didn't stop SCOG ... Where's PJ when you need her ...

As for "moral rights", I don't think that actually grants any extra
rights or anything. It mostly says that if I am the author of something,
I can NOT sign away my right to be credited as such. You can buy the
copyright off me, at which point I have no rights to benefit further
from the work, but you cannot buy the right to be credited as the author
- that is not for sale under "moral rights" law.

(Oh - and the linux trademark is apparently Linus' personal property, so
that throws another hand grenade onto the table ... :-)

Cheers,
Wol

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