ffmpeg vs libav choice of default

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ffmpeg vs libav choice of default

Ulrich Mueller-2
With the recent introduction of the libav USE flag, the Gentoo default
for ffmpeg vs libav is more pronounced than it was before (with libav
being listed first in || ( ) dependencies).

In the replies to http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic.php?p=7694982
several users have expressed their preference for ffmpeg.

So can someone please remind me what are the technical reasons why we
prefer libav over ffmpeg?

Ulrich

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Re: ffmpeg vs libav choice of default

Michał Górny-5
Dnia 2015-02-04, o godz. 10:12:12
Ulrich Mueller <[hidden email]> napisał(a):

> With the recent introduction of the libav USE flag, the Gentoo default
> for ffmpeg vs libav is more pronounced than it was before (with libav
> being listed first in || ( ) dependencies).
>
> In the replies to http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic.php?p=7694982
> several users have expressed their preference for ffmpeg.
>
> So can someone please remind me what are the technical reasons why we
> prefer libav over ffmpeg?

We have a developer inside, so it's easier to bring some sanity in.
Then ffmpeg people copy each patch, so double benefit for us :P.

--
Best regards,
Michał Górny

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Re: ffmpeg vs libav choice of default

Ben de Groot-2
On 4 February 2015 at 17:21, Michał Górny <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Dnia 2015-02-04, o godz. 10:12:12
> Ulrich Mueller <[hidden email]> napisał(a):
>
>> With the recent introduction of the libav USE flag, the Gentoo default
>> for ffmpeg vs libav is more pronounced than it was before (with libav
>> being listed first in || ( ) dependencies).
>>
>> In the replies to http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic.php?p=7694982
>> several users have expressed their preference for ffmpeg.
>>
>> So can someone please remind me what are the technical reasons why we
>> prefer libav over ffmpeg?

From an upstream that I care about:
https://github.com/mpv-player/mpv/wiki/FFmpeg-versus-Libav

Based on that I would say we should switch back the default to ffmpeg.
--
Cheers,

Ben | yngwin
Gentoo developer

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Re: ffmpeg vs libav choice of default

Alexis Ballier-2
In reply to this post by Ulrich Mueller-2
On Wed, 4 Feb 2015 10:12:12 +0100
Ulrich Mueller <[hidden email]> wrote:

> With the recent introduction of the libav USE flag, the Gentoo default
> for ffmpeg vs libav is more pronounced than it was before (with libav
> being listed first in || ( ) dependencies).
>
> In the replies to http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic.php?p=7694982
> several users have expressed their preference for ffmpeg.
>
> So can someone please remind me what are the technical reasons why we
> prefer libav over ffmpeg?


good luck !

wait for other opinions, but I'd say: libav has a cleaner codebase and
stricter development rules. (NB: some gentoo devs are member of the core
libav dev team)


IMHO, from a pure consumer POV where I want to play a random video and
my programs using the libraries not to break, ffmpeg is much better
(more codecs get in faster, API is preserved a bit longer), so I never
understood nor agreed with that choice of default.


Alexis.

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Re: ffmpeg vs libav choice of default

Pacho Ramos
In reply to this post by Ben de Groot-2
El mié, 04-02-2015 a las 17:24 +0800, Ben de Groot escribió:
[...]
> From an upstream that I care about:
> https://github.com/mpv-player/mpv/wiki/FFmpeg-versus-Libav
>
> Based on that I would say we should switch back the default to ffmpeg.

Thanks a lot for the link


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Re: ffmpeg vs libav choice of default

Jason A. Donenfeld-3
In reply to this post by Ben de Groot-2


On Wed, Feb 4, 2015 at 10:24 AM, Ben de Groot <[hidden email]> wrote:

From an upstream that I care about:
https://github.com/mpv-player/mpv/wiki/FFmpeg-versus-Libav

Based on that I would say we should switch back the default to ffmpeg.

I can vouch for the content of that link and the expert opinion of its author. As a consequence, I would high recommend switching back to ffmpeg as default. 
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Re: ffmpeg vs libav choice of default

Jason A. Donenfeld-3
In reply to this post by Michał Górny-5


On Wed, Feb 4, 2015 at 10:21 AM, Michał Górny <[hidden email]> wrote:
Dnia 2015-02-04, o godz. 10:12:12
Ulrich Mueller <[hidden email]> napisał(a):

> So can someone please remind me what are the technical reasons why we
> prefer libav over ffmpeg?

We have a developer inside

I think it's time to end this cronyism, and instead examine things on their technical merit alone. I believe we should go with the opinion of the upstream mpv authors, who make a very clear and compelling case for ffmpeg as default.
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Re: ffmpeg vs libav choice of default

Michał Górny-5
In reply to this post by Ben de Groot-2
Dnia 2015-02-04, o godz. 17:24:03
Ben de Groot <[hidden email]> napisał(a):

> On 4 February 2015 at 17:21, Michał Górny <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Dnia 2015-02-04, o godz. 10:12:12
> > Ulrich Mueller <[hidden email]> napisał(a):
> >
> >> With the recent introduction of the libav USE flag, the Gentoo default
> >> for ffmpeg vs libav is more pronounced than it was before (with libav
> >> being listed first in || ( ) dependencies).
> >>
> >> In the replies to http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic.php?p=7694982
> >> several users have expressed their preference for ffmpeg.
> >>
> >> So can someone please remind me what are the technical reasons why we
> >> prefer libav over ffmpeg?
>
> From an upstream that I care about:
> https://github.com/mpv-player/mpv/wiki/FFmpeg-versus-Libav
>
> Based on that I would say we should switch back the default to ffmpeg.
From what I heard, that upstream likes to change its opinion
frequently, pretty much based on which upstream he is pissed at
the moment. But it's just rumors.

--
Best regards,
Michał Górny

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Re: ffmpeg vs libav choice of default

Jason A. Donenfeld-3


On Wed, Feb 4, 2015 at 10:55 AM, Michał Górny <[hidden email]> wrote:
From what I heard, that upstream likes to change its opinion
frequently, pretty much based on which upstream he is pissed at
the moment. But it's just rumors.

This is most certainly untrue. Please stop disseminating FUD like this. There is zero factual basis for it.

Fortunately, the wiki history of the above linked page retains its history, and we can quickly disprove this petty claim:
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Re: ffmpeg vs libav choice of default

Ben de Groot-2
In reply to this post by Michał Górny-5
On 4 February 2015 at 17:55, Michał Górny <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Dnia 2015-02-04, o godz. 17:24:03
> Ben de Groot <[hidden email]> napisał(a):
>
>> From an upstream that I care about:
>> https://github.com/mpv-player/mpv/wiki/FFmpeg-versus-Libav
>>
>> Based on that I would say we should switch back the default to ffmpeg.
>
> From what I heard, that upstream likes to change its opinion
> frequently, pretty much based on which upstream he is pissed at
> the moment. But it's just rumors.

Rumours have no place here. Let's focus on the technical arguments.

--
Cheers,

Ben | yngwin
Gentoo developer

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Re: ffmpeg vs libav choice of default

Jason A. Donenfeld-3
In reply to this post by Jason A. Donenfeld-3
I'd like to insert, early on in this thread, that we must leave personal biases and associations out of this discussion, and instead focus on technical merits and analyses only. Thus, I would strongly encourage that authors of libav and ffmpeg will refrain from joining this discussion in order to keep unnecessary biases out, which perhaps the sole exception of sending stray commit sha1s along if needed. I believe previous Gentoo policy to have been ruled by this non-technical aegis.
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Re: ffmpeg vs libav choice of default

Michał Górny-5
In reply to this post by Ben de Groot-2
Dnia 2015-02-04, o godz. 18:01:57
Ben de Groot <[hidden email]> napisał(a):

> On 4 February 2015 at 17:55, Michał Górny <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Dnia 2015-02-04, o godz. 17:24:03
> > Ben de Groot <[hidden email]> napisał(a):
> >
> >> From an upstream that I care about:
> >> https://github.com/mpv-player/mpv/wiki/FFmpeg-versus-Libav
> >>
> >> Based on that I would say we should switch back the default to ffmpeg.
> >
> > From what I heard, that upstream likes to change its opinion
> > frequently, pretty much based on which upstream he is pissed at
> > the moment. But it's just rumors.
>
> Rumours have no place here. Let's focus on the technical arguments.
If I were to be picky, 'upstream I care about' is not a technical
argument either.

--
Best regards,
Michał Górny

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Re: ffmpeg vs libav choice of default

Michał Górny-5
In reply to this post by Jason A. Donenfeld-3
Dnia 2015-02-04, o godz. 11:04:57
"Jason A. Donenfeld" <[hidden email]> napisał(a):

> I'd like to insert, early on in this thread, that we must leave personal
> biases and associations *out* of this discussion, and instead focus on
> technical merits and analyses only. Thus, I would *strongly encourage* that
> authors of libav and ffmpeg will *refrain from joining this discussion* in
> order to keep unnecessary biases out, which perhaps the sole exception of
> sending stray commit sha1s along if needed. I believe previous Gentoo
> policy to have been ruled by this non-technical aegis.

I disagree. The authors/maintainers of both have the most to say here
since they actually may know *something* rather than the FUD that's
been going around like forever.

--
Best regards,
Michał Górny

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Re: ffmpeg vs libav choice of default

Michał Górny-5
In reply to this post by Alexis Ballier-2
Dnia 2015-02-04, o godz. 10:26:06
Alexis Ballier <[hidden email]> napisał(a):

> On Wed, 4 Feb 2015 10:12:12 +0100
> Ulrich Mueller <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > With the recent introduction of the libav USE flag, the Gentoo default
> > for ffmpeg vs libav is more pronounced than it was before (with libav
> > being listed first in || ( ) dependencies).
> >
> > In the replies to http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic.php?p=7694982
> > several users have expressed their preference for ffmpeg.
> >
> > So can someone please remind me what are the technical reasons why we
> > prefer libav over ffmpeg?
>
>
> good luck !
I pretty much agree with Alexis' points. To clarify...

> wait for other opinions, but I'd say: libav has a cleaner codebase and
> stricter development rules. (NB: some gentoo devs are member of the core
> libav dev team)

I'd say both projects suck hard at lack of understanding of API/ABI
stability. However, if one of them is going to finally get some
stability, it's rather going to be libav. But we're far from that, so...

> IMHO, from a pure consumer POV where I want to play a random video and
> my programs using the libraries not to break, ffmpeg is much better
> (more codecs get in faster, API is preserved a bit longer), so I never
> understood nor agreed with that choice of default.

It's easiest to look at the trackers:

- ffmpeg-2 [1] -- 26/26 fixed,
- ffmpeg-2.4 [2] -- 3/3 fixed (but unsure if there won't be more),
- libav-9 [3] -- 55/55 fixed,
- libav-10 [4] -- 11/25 fixed.

No offense here but in my experience, ffmpeg support in Gentoo is fixed
faster than libav.

[1]:https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=476490
[2]:https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=524568
[3]:https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=443230
[4]:https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=509294

--
Best regards,
Michał Górny

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Re: ffmpeg vs libav choice of default

Pacho Ramos
El mié, 04-02-2015 a las 11:40 +0100, Michał Górny escribió:
[...]

> It's easiest to look at the trackers:
>
> - ffmpeg-2 [1] -- 26/26 fixed,
> - ffmpeg-2.4 [2] -- 3/3 fixed (but unsure if there won't be more),
> - libav-9 [3] -- 55/55 fixed,
> - libav-10 [4] -- 11/25 fixed.
>
> No offense here but in my experience, ffmpeg support in Gentoo is fixed
> faster than libav.
>
> [1]:https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=476490
> [2]:https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=524568
> [3]:https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=443230
> [4]:https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=509294
>

Also I am unsure how many packages are working with recent libav
versions:
https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=474408


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Re: ffmpeg vs libav choice of default

Matthias Maier-3
In reply to this post by Ulrich Mueller-2

> So can someone please remind me what are the technical reasons why we
> prefer libav over ffmpeg?

*ugh* Please no.

What about leaving the default (if there ever was such a default) as it
is and avoid the otherwise imminent trainwreck?

Best,
Matthias

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Re: ffmpeg vs libav choice of default

Ulrich Mueller-2
>>>>> On Wed, 04 Feb 2015, Matthias Maier wrote:

>> So can someone please remind me what are the technical reasons why we
>> prefer libav over ffmpeg?

> *ugh* Please no.

> What about leaving the default (if there ever was such a default) as it
> is and avoid the otherwise imminent trainwreck?

As I said, so far the default was very weak, namely by ordering of
dependencies in a || ( ) group.

This has changed since the libav flag is now enabled in profiles:
http://sources.gentoo.org/cgi-bin/viewvc.cgi/gentoo-x86/profiles/base/make.defaults?r1=1.121&r2=1.122

Ulrich

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Re: ffmpeg vs libav choice of default

Mike Auty-3
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Hash: SHA1

Hi,

Whilst the default *is* still in place (and particularly after the
recent news article detailing that users should be using libav), could
we please keep commits like the following until *after* we've made an
agreed upon decision please?

http://sources.gentoo.org/cgi-bin/viewvc.cgi/gentoo-x86/profiles/package.mask?r1=1.16328&r2=1.16329

Anyone using mpv (because mplayer does not work with libav, and they
were directed to use mpv by the news article) will now be hit by
blockers attempting to reinstall ffmpeg.

It's fine to have disagreements, but airing them in front of the users
like this is not an ideal situation...

Mike  5:)
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Re: ffmpeg vs libav choice of default

Luca Barbato
In reply to this post by Michał Górny-5
On 04/02/15 11:40, Michał Górny wrote:
> It's easiest to look at the trackers:
>
> - ffmpeg-2 [1] -- 26/26 fixed,
> - ffmpeg-2.4 [2] -- 3/3 fixed (but unsure if there won't be more),
> - libav-9 [3] -- 55/55 fixed,
> - libav-10 [4] -- 11/25 fixed.
>
> No offense here but in my experience, ffmpeg support in Gentoo is fixed
> faster than libav.

Given I have to fix the downstream issues first in Libav and then
whenever FFmpeg decides to drop the stale API they get those for free
I'm not surprised.

As per Libav, I managed to convince my fellow developers not to drop
2-years old APIs for some more time, since there is enough orphaned
software using it (thus why libav 10 and 11 had been kept API (source)
compatible) and we (as Libav) spent a decent chunk of time to get
updates for a good number of them.

Sadly the balance between the requirements of our active users, that
demands better APIs and the latent users, that did not update since
version 0.8 or so, was a bit too much toward the former.

I'd like not to have to discuss more than this since I'm strongly
related to Libav and I have no time to get involved in a discussion with
fans.

lu

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Re: ffmpeg vs libav choice of default

Alexis Ballier-2
On Wed, 04 Feb 2015 13:57:55 +0100
Luca Barbato <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 04/02/15 11:40, Michał Górny wrote:
> > It's easiest to look at the trackers:
> >
> > - ffmpeg-2 [1] -- 26/26 fixed,
> > - ffmpeg-2.4 [2] -- 3/3 fixed (but unsure if there won't be more),
> > - libav-9 [3] -- 55/55 fixed,
> > - libav-10 [4] -- 11/25 fixed.
> >
> > No offense here but in my experience, ffmpeg support in Gentoo is
> > fixed faster than libav.
>
> Given I have to fix the downstream issues first in Libav and then
> whenever FFmpeg decides to drop the stale API they get those for free
> I'm not surprised.
>

yeah, the above numbers are a bit unfair since most libav-9 fixes/bugs
would have applied to ffmpeg 2 I think.

Alexis.

123