On 1/13/2020 01:52, Michał Górny wrote:
> On Sun, 2020-01-12 at 17:07 -0500, Joshua Kinard wrote:
> I understand that you don't do much Python ebuild work, or probably
> Python development in general. I understand that you may feel like you
> need more time with Python 2. But before sending such mails, please try
> to put yourself in our skin.
Actually, I've done a lot of general Python development over the last few
years outside of Gentoo on work-related stuff. And I've had to convert
those projects from Py2 to Py3, as well. In fact when faced with the
decision of maintaining Py2 support alongside Py3, I cut my losses and ran,
and dropped Py2 support in a new version. Wasn't worth the effort to
maintain both with the limited development time I had.
So I'm not walking into this conversation a happy idiot just saying random
things to see what kind of fun I can cause. There are things I will
absolutely miss in Python2 (goodbye, ASCII strings). But there are also
things that I like about Python 3 (hello, lru_cache). So I've been there,
in the proverbial trenches, and know of the pain fellow pythonistas have
gone through over the last few years.
That said, strictly on the ebuild-side of things, yes, I have not dabbled in
that too much. But I do have some understanding of what you are going through.
> Now imagine someone who doesn't really know much about maintaining
> Python in Gentoo and problems related to Python 2 sunrising, grabs one
> site about Python releases and tells me what to do without knowing
> the wider context. Wouldn't you feel angry? Demotivated? Depressed
Actually, I wouldn't feel any of those at all. I'd probably laugh at it, in
fact. Why laugh? Because in that context, I would have knowledge and
understanding of the wider issue, while the poor sod who just proposed that
crazy idea would not. And my laughter would be more at myself, because
knowing the terrible truth kindles in me a desire to return to that time
when I, too, was ignorant and happy and free. But the chains of knowledge
bind me to a much more grim fate.
> I mean, forgive my expression but we're deep in shit. As you've noticed
> yourself, emerge spews few pages of 'I can't upgrade setuptools' because
> of humongous number of packages that still need Python 2-capable
> version. Sure, we could put some effort into making it still work with
> Python 2, then start collecting more and more patches to various
> packages just to keep things working. But then, 3-6-12 months from now
> it will no longer be feasible, the cesspool will overflow and we'll be
> even deeper in shit that we're today.
> If people started removing Python 2 from Gentoo years ago, like upstream
> suggested, today things would be much better. But we waited till last
> minute. And now you're telling us to wait more because there will be
> a new release of the *interpreter*?
FWIW, I was just making a suggestion, not directing an inviolable course of
action. So calm down, calm down. If anything, perhaps we should at least
put out an eselect news release that reads like an "under construction"
notice to let users (and other devs) know that there's going to be some
rough spots ahead while Py2 support is excised from the tree. If there's a
tracker bug, then directing them to that as well so there's a way for people
to follow the process of the removal and even help chase down loose ends.
Again, that's just a suggestion, so please put the pitchforks down if ya'll
don't like it.